Fast Food

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Copehead
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Re: Fast Food

Postby Copehead » 06 Aug 2017, 09:20

Fonz wrote:
I understand that 'some' people may be both cash and time poor, but I believe the number 'actually' working two jobs, 50 plus hours a week, is relatively small compared with the number of people who have shitty diets and eat rubbish food.
I would be fascinated to see a Venn diagram of where these populations intersect.
I would maintain that good wholesome food, if not the actual bestest quality imaginable, is still accessible to anyone outside of a rural area, for way less than 'fast food'
I was a student once. Fast food was a rare luxury. I still managed to eat well.

Education is the key, and though it should be a parental responsibility many adults simply don't have the knowledge or wisdom to teach their kids.


Again you are thinking about how easy it was for you as a single person to access good quality, cheap, healthy food, multiply that by 4; and students do tend to have a lot of spare time on their hands in my experience. It is a logistical problem as much as anything else for many people.

Most people, if they put their mind to it, could probably find a way to do this but I imagine many cannot be fagged with the hassle and don't care enough about their diet as they have a list of rather more pressing problems to deal with. Getting the correct amount of money set aside for a weekly shop and trying to sort out the necessary transport to move it is going to get tedious after a while.

Jack Monroe the single mother who blogged in the Guardian about how to feed a family healthily on low incomes covered all of this. Often the desire is there but people are just simply put off by the hurdles in their way which do not exist for people on middle incomes - lack of transport, lack of time, lack of access to the sums of money that allow big weekly shops.

All I am suggesting is a bit of empathy for people in this position. They are not all lumpen Proles who are too stupid to feed themselves properly.

And if the generational knowledge that teaches these skills has been lost it does need to be taken up by the state what ever Toby SmallState thinks, I wasn't just taught to cook by my parents I was taught to cook at school, and sow and knit. This is part of the rather snooty attitude that school is only for academic skills and, worse, supposedly feminine skills like cookery don't even have a place in the practical arena; as I doubt Toby would send out a stentorian blast proclaiming the family is the place to be taught woodwork. I bet there are many more cooks in this country than carpenters.
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Re: Fast Food

Postby Fonz » 06 Aug 2017, 16:02

I accept pretty much all of that, Copehead, but with the proliferation of mini-supermarket-type places these days there is generally no need to have to travel out of town to a bigger hypermarket. The staples are available pretty much 'round the corner' of anyone in a semi-urban environment. Never mind actual old-fashioned grocery shops.

I don't think the 'proles' are actually stupid, but I do think the typical person that eats a lot of fast food could make wiser decisions about what they eat, and the information is out there, easily accessible, and cooking shows on telly have never been more popular if inspiration is in short supply.
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Re: Fast Food

Postby Bride Of Sea Of Tunes » 06 Aug 2017, 16:23

Fonz wrote:I accept pretty much all of that, Copehead, but with the proliferation of mini-supermarket-type places these days there is generally no need to have to travel out of town to a bigger hypermarket. The staples are available pretty much 'round the corner' of anyone in a semi-urban environment. Never mind actual old-fashioned grocery shops.

I don't think the 'proles' are actually stupid, but I do think the typical person that eats a lot of fast food could make wiser decisions about what they eat, and the information is out there, easily accessible, and cooking shows on telly have never been more popular if inspiration is in short supply.


Essentially you are right, as is Copehead -

I stick by what I wrote in my first reply: it may well be true that poor (jobless) people in theory can, with their low income, purchase simple foodstuffs, that can be used to cook a decent meal.

That takes some time, and attention.

The people I was thinking of, and I guess Copehead too, live under permanent stress. Many of them suffer from anxiety disorders and depression as a result. They don't feel as if they'd anything substantial to say about their own lives anymore - and they feel controlled and surveillanced all of the time, for they feel like they're living in a bureaucratic hell.

This is no environment to consider cooking carefully, with ease of mind. Only people with some existential safety do that.

So these people, and I say this with utmost respect, go the way that offers the most distraction. Telly on all of the time, quick, fast, fat, and sugary food - that offers immediate gratification the most, what's the word, perfect satiety?

Our system is broken beyond painless repair. This is my genuine conviction.

(Please note that I wrote about what I myself have observed from close perspective, in Holland. The media here are conditioned to not portray this sad reality anymore, I don't know why that is, though I guess even our public stations fear that they don't attract many viewers with such news.)
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Re: Fast Food

Postby Fonz » 06 Aug 2017, 17:40

Frank, you're talking about a fraction, who knows how large, of the population that eats badly. Not everyone who had a below average income lives in an existential hell, with mental health issues.
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Re: Fast Food

Postby Bride Of Sea Of Tunes » 06 Aug 2017, 17:48

Fonz wrote:Frank, you're talking about a fraction, who knows how large, of the population that eats badly. Not everyone who had a below average income lives in an existential hell, with mental health issues.


Thanks, Fonz. I am quite convinced that it's not a fraction, but that means I'm due to find some serious numbers and statistics to underscore my points.

I hope to return on the matter tomorrow.
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Re: Fast Food

Postby Fonz » 06 Aug 2017, 18:16

Bride Of Sea Of Tunes wrote:
Fonz wrote:Frank, you're talking about a fraction, who knows how large, of the population that eats badly. Not everyone who had a below average income lives in an existential hell, with mental health issues.


Thanks, Fonz. I am quite convinced that it's not a fraction, but that means I'm due to find some serious numbers and statistics to underscore my points.

I hope to return on the matter tomorrow.



Well, a fraction can really be any number...

But any stats would be handy, especially if they're contextualised by the number of people who aren't on a low income, that still choose to eat a poor diet...
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Re: Fast Food

Postby Bride Of Sea Of Tunes » 06 Aug 2017, 18:35

Fonz wrote:
Bride Of Sea Of Tunes wrote:
Fonz wrote:Frank, you're talking about a fraction, who knows how large, of the population that eats badly. Not everyone who had a below average income lives in an existential hell, with mental health issues.


Thanks, Fonz. I am quite convinced that it's not a fraction, but that means I'm due to find some serious numbers and statistics to underscore my points.

I hope to return on the matter tomorrow.



Well, a fraction can really be any number...

But any stats would be handy, especially if they're contextualised by the number of people who aren't on a low income, that still choose to eat a poor diet...


That last remark of yours is important. I indeed believe that there are people relatively well off, and who have a poor diet. I'd say that that then would be a free choice, because even if they'd have little time for some reason, they could order a decent meal, eat out, whatever.

It is an interesting issue. Because even though I wrote 'free choice', that still might only be the way it seems on the outside. People who are really used to meals rich in sugar and saturated fatty acids, in not-that-good additives, excess salt and glutamate, en low in vitamins and fibers, may be said to be 'dependent' on this type of food: a (mild) form of addiction (brain research really points to this).
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Re: Fast Food

Postby Fonz » 06 Aug 2017, 18:44

Bride Of Sea Of Tunes wrote:
Fonz wrote:
Bride Of Sea Of Tunes wrote:
Thanks, Fonz. I am quite convinced that it's not a fraction, but that means I'm due to find some serious numbers and statistics to underscore my points.

I hope to return on the matter tomorrow.



Well, a fraction can really be any number...

But any stats would be handy, especially if they're contextualised by the number of people who aren't on a low income, that still choose to eat a poor diet...


That last remark of yours is important. I indeed believe that there are people relatively well off, and who have a poor diet. I'd say that that then would be a free choice, because even if they'd have little time for some reason, they could order a decent meal, eat out, whatever.

It is an interesting issue. Because even though I wrote 'free choice', that still might only be the way it seems on the outside. People who are really used to meals rich in sugar and saturated fatty acids, in not-that-good additives, excess salt and glutamate, en low in vitamins and fibers, may be said to be 'dependent' on this type of food: a (mild) form of addiction (brain research really points to this).



Agreed.

It takes a bit of self-discipline to eat well, if your brain is crying out for salt, fats etc
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Re: Fast Food

Postby The Modernist » 06 Aug 2017, 19:42

Fonz wrote:
I don't think the 'proles' are actually stupid, but I do think the typical person that eats a lot of fast food could make wiser decisions about what they eat, and the information is out there, easily accessible, and cooking shows on telly have never been more popular if inspiration is in short supply.


So I repeat to you the question I put to Toby..why don't they then?

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Re: Fast Food

Postby The Modernist » 06 Aug 2017, 20:02

Bride Of Sea Of Tunes wrote:
Essentially you are right, as is Copehead -

I stick by what I wrote in my first reply: it may well be true that poor (jobless) people in theory can, with their low income, purchase simple foodstuffs, that can be used to cook a decent meal.

That takes some time, and attention.

The people I was thinking of, and I guess Copehead too, live under permanent stress. Many of them suffer from anxiety disorders and depression as a result. They don't feel as if they'd anything substantial to say about their own lives anymore - and they feel controlled and surveillanced all of the time, for they feel like they're living in a bureaucratic hell.

.)


It's not even that complex Frank (although there is truth in what you say). Most people are quite sheep-like in their behaviour, they react to fit in with their environment. If you're over 25 from quite a privileged background and all you do is eat MCds and live on pizzas from the supermarket, you'd be viewed as an oddity and quite unworldly and unsophisticated. If you're over 25 and living on some sink estate and doing this, most of your neighbours wouldn't blink an eye.
Most of this debate can be summarised as 'why can't the working class be more like the middle class'? And the answer of course is because they're not middle class.

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Re: Fast Food

Postby Fonz » 06 Aug 2017, 20:14

The Modernist wrote:
Fonz wrote:
I don't think the 'proles' are actually stupid, but I do think the typical person that eats a lot of fast food could make wiser decisions about what they eat, and the information is out there, easily accessible, and cooking shows on telly have never been more popular if inspiration is in short supply.


So I repeat to you the question I put to Toby..why don't they then?



I'll say it again: education.

Whether from the family unit or from the state.
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Re: Fast Food

Postby Bride Of Sea Of Tunes » 06 Aug 2017, 20:21

The Modernist wrote:
Bride Of Sea Of Tunes wrote:
Essentially you are right, as is Copehead -

I stick by what I wrote in my first reply: it may well be true that poor (jobless) people in theory can, with their low income, purchase simple foodstuffs, that can be used to cook a decent meal.

That takes some time, and attention.

The people I was thinking of, and I guess Copehead too, live under permanent stress. Many of them suffer from anxiety disorders and depression as a result. They don't feel as if they'd anything substantial to say about their own lives anymore - and they feel controlled and surveillanced all of the time, for they feel like they're living in a bureaucratic hell.

.)


It's not even that complex Frank (although there is truth in what you say). Most people are quite sheep-like in their behaviour, they react to fit in with their environment. If you're over 25 from quite a privileged background and all you do is eat MCds and live on pizzas from the supermarket, you'd be viewed as an oddity and quite unworldly and unsophisticated. If you're over 25 and living on some sink estate and doing this, most of your neighbours wouldn't blink an eye.
Most of this debate can be summarised as 'why can't the working class be more like the middle class'? And the answer of course is because they're not middle class.


Thank you, Modernist

wise words. I am not pushing my own ideas to only convince; I admire it when others show another facet of a complex problem. It is true that people are also part of a group, with its own rituals and peculiar oddities. In fact, I think there is a deep truth in your last two sentences. Group behaviour can impose behaviours on people, whether these behaviours are 'good', or 'detrimental' to themselves.

Let me be a bit posh here (not really): your comment reminds me of an observation of Nietzsche: 'mental problems are actually quite rare, in individuals - but they are often visible in groups of people' (my paraphrase). I take it that he meant: individual people can know very well what's good for them, and behave accordingly. But when in a mass, they may take on words and actions that are mad (deleterious) for themselves and society.

Soccer hooligans come to mind.
Last edited by Bride Of Sea Of Tunes on 06 Aug 2017, 21:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fast Food

Postby The Modernist » 06 Aug 2017, 20:36

Fonz wrote:
I'll say it again: education.

Whether from the family unit or from the state.


Well it clearly isn't coming from the family unit, at least not sufficiently, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. Education is important, but its impact is often limited by wider and more powerful social currents . In isolation it can only do so much, showing year 10 a Jamie Oliver video on healthy eating isn't going to cause a complete reversal in their learned behaviour.
But I don't want to be completely negative. There are things the state could do. One example would be you could take the worst 50 areas for poor diet and ill health and set up organic farms in those areas and shops to sell the produce. State subsidised and run by people from the area. Attitudes wouldn't change overnight, but through generations they would do because it would become the norm. It would take long term financial investment and, more importantly, a genuine desire to make lasting social change.

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Re: Fast Food

Postby Fonz » 06 Aug 2017, 20:52

The Modernist wrote:
Fonz wrote:
I'll say it again: education.

Whether from the family unit or from the state.


Well it clearly isn't coming from the family unit, at least not sufficiently, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. Education is important, but its impact is often limited by wider and more powerful social currents . In isolation it can only do so much, showing year 10 a Jamie Oliver video on healthy eating isn't going to cause a complete reversal in their learned behaviour.
But I don't want to be completely negative. There are things the state could do. One example would be you could take the worst 50 areas for poor diet and ill health and set up organic farms in those areas and shops to sell the produce. State subsidised and run by people from the area. Attitudes wouldn't change overnight, but through generations they would do because it would become the norm. It would take long term financial investment and, more importantly, a genuine desire to make lasting social change.


Why do some families manage to educate their young, and others don't seem to give a fuck? Is it because they got no teaching from prior generations?
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Re: Fast Food

Postby The Modernist » 06 Aug 2017, 20:59

Fonz wrote:
Why do some families manage to educate their young, and others don't seem to give a fuck? Is it because they got no teaching from prior generations?


You would have to be more specific in your question for me to answer that, there are obviously a complex range of factors to do with the family unit, education, social class, cultural behaviour etc. If it wasn't complex, then governments wouldn't be so keen to ignore it. :lol:

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Re: Fast Food

Postby K » 06 Aug 2017, 21:06

It's immensely complex. Why, do example, do my family eat so much better than my dad? We were poor for many years but then a few promotions put us in the 'doing OK' bracket. When my kids go to my dad's they get processed, frozen, Iceland type treats. Hideous shit we would never serve them. I'm not sure who educated me about this. My kids enjoy my dad's meals, potato based frozen, fried dinosaur shapes and all.
(PS were not serving them quinoa and mung bean salad here, but we usually cook)
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Re: Fast Food

Postby Bride Of Sea Of Tunes » 06 Aug 2017, 21:45

Thanks to all for the contributions, these mean a lot to me, since I try to make sense of problems that are present in countries in which abundance of everything seems to be a core certainty.

But why are these problems there?

I am reminded of a simple observation of Curtis Mayfield: "It Doesn't Have To Be This Way".
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Re: Fast Food

Postby Copehead » 06 Aug 2017, 22:15

Fonz wrote:Frank, you're talking about a fraction, who knows how large, of the population that eats badly. Not everyone who had a below average income lives in an existential hell, with mental health issues.


But what % of the population are we talking about that have substantially worse diets than average?

It is probably just another "Prole Threat" isn't it, something else to tut about.

I commend Jack Monroe's articles to everyone, they explain how even motivated people can find it difficult to feed their families healthily and cheaply.
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Re: Fast Food

Postby Copehead » 07 Aug 2017, 02:46

Bride Of Sea Of Tunes wrote:
The Modernist wrote:
Bride Of Sea Of Tunes wrote:
Essentially you are right, as is Copehead -

I stick by what I wrote in my first reply: it may well be true that poor (jobless) people in theory can, with their low income, purchase simple foodstuffs, that can be used to cook a decent meal.

That takes some time, and attention.

The people I was thinking of, and I guess Copehead too, live under permanent stress. Many of them suffer from anxiety disorders and depression as a result. They don't feel as if they'd anything substantial to say about their own lives anymore - and they feel controlled and surveillanced all of the time, for they feel like they're living in a bureaucratic hell.

.)


It's not even that complex Frank (although there is truth in what you say). Most people are quite sheep-like in their behaviour, they react to fit in with their environment. If you're over 25 from quite a privileged background and all you do is eat MCds and live on pizzas from the supermarket, you'd be viewed as an oddity and quite unworldly and unsophisticated. If you're over 25 and living on some sink estate and doing this, most of your neighbours wouldn't blink an eye.
Most of this debate can be summarised as 'why can't the working class be more like the middle class'? And the answer of course is because they're not middle class.


Thank you, Modernist

wise words. I am not pushing my own ideas to only convince; I admire it when others show another facet of a complex problem. It is true that people are also part of a group, with its own rituals and peculiar oddities. In fact, I think there is a deep truth in your last two sentences. Group behaviour can impose behaviours on people, whether these behaviours are 'good', or 'detrimental' to themselves.

Let me be a bit posh here (not really): your comment reminds me of an observation of Nietzsche: 'mental problems are actually quite rare, in individuals - but they are often visible in groups of people' (my paraphrase). I take it that he meant: individual people can know very well what's good for them, and behave accordingly. But when in a mass, they may take on words and actions that are mad (deleterious) for themselves and society.

Soccer hooligans come to mind.


Madness is rare in individuals - but in groups, parties, nations, and ages it is the rule

Lovely apercu, thanks for reminding me
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Re: Fast Food

Postby Jimbo » 07 Aug 2017, 06:03

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Don't they know white processed flour will make them fat and do poorly in school? And the gluten!
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