Neoliberalism

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Davey the Fat Boy
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Neoliberalism

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 06 Jul 2017, 17:53

The abuse of the word "neoliberal" is a current pet peeve of mine. These days you hear it tossed out be folks on the left at other folks on the left whom they judge to be less committed than them.

The following quote was in a music thread on Yakety Yak. It seemed out of place there, so I figured I'd start this conversation with it.

As near as I can tell, I think (bride of)SOT is using the term in its classical meaning (actual market-happy conservatives), but that isn't clear.

Regardless - is the following true?:

Bride Of Sea Of Tunes wrote:I am convinced that the dominant idolatry that is termed neoliberalism by the most serious of critics and scholars has changed everything. It has been deleterious for people's expectations as human beings, for their hopes and dreams, for their self-esteem, for their general trust in others and in life itself, for their own bank of cheerful and loving memories, for their good spirits and their minds in general.

It's not surprising that the lack of shared values and shared hopes has led to isolation, depression, and an extreme appetite for stimuli, quick fixes, superficial contacts, representations of violence and pornography, and bad, bland, populist cultural expressions.

Turning inward, and respecting contemplative silence, these things perhaps have become very threatening and frightening to people.

But without these activities, there can't be culture, or art.

(Rant over, sorry, I did go on a bit here.)
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Minnie the Minx
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Re: Neoliberalism

Postby Minnie the Minx » 06 Jul 2017, 18:01

If Frank's Victoria Sponge doesn't rise, it is because of neoliberalism.
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Sneelock
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Re: Neoliberalism

Postby Sneelock » 06 Jul 2017, 18:24

I can't speak for Frank but I enjoy abusing the term every chance I get. Like many such words, it has gone from describing who those people are to what they do.
Take Rahm Emmanuel, please.

He clearly meets the textbook definition of a Neoliberal in terms of free market horseshit.
so, at some point, the shit a guy like that does is bound to get caught in the same net.

here's one of his latest:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... story.html
is this even legal? I do NOT think it's a stretch to use the term "neoliberal" as a nerf bat to beat motherfuckers like Rahm over the head with.
but then, I'm pretty much the opposite of Davey. I think the Democrats cut their own throats the more they stand apart from their energized base.

sure, nobody likes purists but making them feel like they aren't welcome at the table is NO way to go about building a consensus.
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Re: Neoliberalism

Postby Rayge » 06 Jul 2017, 18:47

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Regardless - is the following true?:


It's a truth, certainly.
I'm not so much for the social analysis route, but i have a personal aversion to neoliberalism (I only know about the classical meaning, the economic 'philosophy' derived from that twat Friedman, the Wicked Witch of the Best and Buddy of Bonzo) as it is pretty much the opposite of my own beliefs in socialism and co-operation as ideal social models (and indeed my belief in Keynsian economics). It's a justification for greed and competitive savagery, and has at its heart a fundamental misunderstanding (or deliberate warping) of classical economics, of the nature of markets and the difference between wealth and money. It is a vile and essentially moronic and/or self-deceiving faith that divides and creates winners and losers. If people like the law of the jungle so much, they should go live in one, see how long they last.
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Re: Neoliberalism

Postby WG Kaspar » 06 Jul 2017, 20:41

I personally am a huge fan.
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Davey the Fat Boy
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Re: Neoliberalism

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 06 Jul 2017, 21:30

Classic Rock Sneelock wrote:Take Rahm Emmanuel, please.

He clearly meets the textbook definition of a Neoliberal in terms of free market horseshit.


Which textbook is that? I'm no Emanuel fan, but he's not a neoliberal. Words used to have meanings.
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Re: Neoliberalism

Postby Sneelock » 06 Jul 2017, 21:43

they still do.
you don't think his history of "education reform" is textbook neoliberalism?
well then, you can stick it up your ass. :)

you see "the left" as the bad guy in your little battle and I don't.
Last edited by Sneelock on 06 Jul 2017, 22:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Neoliberalism

Postby Sneelock » 06 Jul 2017, 22:10

In fact, I wish I'd done more to stand up against that crap back in the NAFTA days.
I think the mainstream Democratic establishment of today absolutely STINKS with the rot of neoliberalism. Unlike you, I see those holier than thou lefty hipsters as a ticket OUT of that dump.
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Re: Neoliberalism

Postby Fonz » 06 Jul 2017, 22:16

I haven't finished railing against the neocons, never mind the neoliberals.

Fuck the police, yo
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Re: Neoliberalism

Postby Samoan » 06 Jul 2017, 22:19

WG Kaspar wrote:I personally am a huge fan.

:)
^^^^^ great post. Thank you. wrote: You know that fairy tale The Secret Garden? Not the porn one the actual book for youngsters. When I listen to Eye I feel like what the girl saw when she was through the door.

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Davey the Fat Boy
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Re: Neoliberalism

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 06 Jul 2017, 23:17

Classic Rock Sneelock wrote:they still do.
you don't think his history of "education reform" is textbook neoliberalism?
well then, you can stick it up your ass. :)

you see "the left" as the bad guy in your little battle and I don't.


Which little battle, snee?

I'm perfectly fine with the left. Especially the ones who bother to use words with some attempt at veracity.

Supporting a policy (or even several policies) that might be further towards the neoliberal spectrum than you'd like does not make someone a neoliberal. There isn't a single Democrat holding office today that deserves that title.
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Sneelock
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Re: Neoliberalism

Postby Sneelock » 06 Jul 2017, 23:27

There isn't a single Democrat holding office today that deserves that title.


:lol:
Then, in the words of Sidney Falco, "you're blind, Mr. Magoo"
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Re: Neoliberalism

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 06 Jul 2017, 23:37

Somewhere there's a conservative Sneelock arguing that Daryl Issa is a progressive. That guy's just as confident in his argument as you - and no less wrong.
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Re: Neoliberalism

Postby Sneelock » 06 Jul 2017, 23:42

well, that Sneelock and me are going to need to share YOU Davey because there's only one guy as full of shit as you.
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Re: Neoliberalism

Postby Sneelock » 06 Jul 2017, 23:43

when it comes to what is and isn't fair to call "neoliberalism" at any rate.
you're right, you don't have a problem with the left, you have a problem with etymology!
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Re: Neoliberalism

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 06 Jul 2017, 23:54

...or you could both go halves on a dictionary.
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Jimbo
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Re: Neoliberalism

Postby Jimbo » 07 Jul 2017, 05:44

Classic Rock Sneelock wrote: free market horseshit.


This.
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Re: Neoliberalism

Postby Bride Of Sea Of Tunes » 07 Jul 2017, 09:06

Thanks to Davey for starting the thread.

Neoliberalism is defined. Yet the people who promote it don't call themselves neoliberal. They deny its existence. And they have good reasons to do so.

Neoliberalism is also named: late capitalism.

It usually signifies: free market and free flows of capital dominate every aspect of our lives. The state is only there to guarantee these 'freedoms', and only to punish everyone and everything that stands in the way of the freely functioning markets.

Capitalism and democracy can co-exist, but it is an unhappy marriage.

Neoliberalism and democracy can't coexist.

Here is some reading advice, for those really interested:

http://sok.bz/content/3-clanky/6-2012/2 ... ralism.pdf

http://centredelangues.ens-lyon.fr/angl ... elerin.pdf

https://libcom.org/files/Capitalist%20R ... Fisher.pdf
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Re: Neoliberalism

Postby Jimbo » 07 Jul 2017, 13:56

Is Hillary a neoconservative, neoliberal, both or neither?
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Re: Neoliberalism

Postby Bride Of Sea Of Tunes » 07 Jul 2017, 14:43

Jimbo wrote:Is Hillary a neoconservative, neoliberal, both or neither?


I would rank her as a neoliberal. I myself have reconsidered my position on Bill Clinton, who way back then came across as amiable, and really interested in social issues.

But his track record does not agree with those impressions. IIRC Clinton laid the foundation for the Big Crisis of 2007-2008.

I think that the old scheme of 'Republicans = greedy; Democrats = for the little people' *) is obsolete.

Hillary's core ideas belong to the neoliberal tradition; although of course she wouldn't have gone to such extremes as an immediate repeal of the ACA, and wouldn't have planned the attacks on the public education system that Trump tries to realize now.

This explains the rise of Sanders as well as the victory of Trump. Trump was elected not out of admiration and hope, but out of utter hopelessness and despair. Poor white Americans wanted a huge change at all costs, perhaps up to the point that it didn't matter to them anymore what that change might look like.

The heroin/opioid/alcohol explosion in poor US states is frightening. For the first time, average life expectation in years has fallen with poor white American men. Medical researchers call it: 'Death by Despair'.

All these things are tied together.

(This is written rather fast - please take that into account.)

*) of course this scheme is extremely simplified.
The invisible and the non-existing very much look alike.