Grenfell Tower Fire - London

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Neige » 27 Jun 2017, 21:44

The Write Profile wrote:BBC Panorama's documentary about the Grenfell Tower Fire is as urgent and angry as you'd expect. Putting it all together in a week with information from so many different sources is an achievement in itself, but it's also remarkably straight and forceful.



Good journalism, very powerful and moving!
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Diamond Dog » 28 Jun 2017, 11:16

So the Govt announce that Sir Ken Knight will chair an:

“independent expert advisory panel” to advise on new fire safety measures.

It has been pointed out that Knight advised the Government against retrofitting sprinklers to high rise residential buildings in his report on the Lakanal House fire in Camberwell, in which six people died.

He wrote: “It is not considered as practical or economically viable to make a requirement for the retrospective fitting of fire suppression systems to all current high-rise residential buildings.”

Scrapbook has also found that Knight was the author of a 2013 report which advocated £200 million worth of cuts to the fire service."

https://politicalscrapbook.net/2017/06/ ... -by-200m/#

That will help then.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby fire and fueryIre » 28 Jun 2017, 11:18

Diamond Dog wrote:
Scrapbook has also found that Knight was the author of a 2013 report which advocated £200 million worth of cuts to the fire service."

https://politicalscrapbook.net/2017/06/ ... -by-200m/#

That will help then.


Does anyone know what the average cost of such a report is? All those expert witness fees and "agreeable luncheons" must add up to a fair amount...
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Rayge » 02 Jul 2017, 19:27

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby fire and fueryIre » 03 Jul 2017, 10:50

The council leader who last week "stepped aside" due to "perceived shortcomings" just underlines the arroganace and lack of common decency afflicting the people in charge of this shameful episode
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Copehead » 03 Jul 2017, 17:39

The Great Defector wrote:So, is this the builder's fault? architects? cladding makers? Where does the liability start and stop?


Initially with the Councillors who decided to save a few tens of thousands of pounds, ultimately with the political ideology of AUSTERITY, which is just a cover for removing money from poor people through cuts to benefits and to service provision in order to give money to the richest in society. In this case in a council tax rebate to the richest in the borough.

In both cases here the underlying factor is Conservative Party politicians and their wealth redistribution upwards.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Your Friendly Neighbourhood Postman » 08 Jul 2017, 11:24

I was pretty crushed to watch the BBC morning news today.

Firemen have spoken out, anonymously (I think).

The firefighters experienced grave and unforgivable problems in their attempts to take the appropriate action.

The main high ladder arrived half an hour to late. A critical delay, an expert said.

These heroes couldn't make proper radio contact while trying to extinguish the fires (inside the building, I gather?).

There were problems with the hoses. They weren't strong enough to allow for a free flow of water; moreover, the water pressure was too low.

The men had to inhale toxic fumes while trying to save lives (IIRC they encountered cyanide compounds).

If I understood all of this correctly, and I have no reason to think it's not true. then here we see the bankruptcy of a criminal political ideology.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Insouciant Western People » 10 Jul 2017, 10:05

Bride Of Sea Of Tunes wrote:The firefighters experienced grave and unforgivable problems in their attempts to take the appropriate action.

The main high ladder arrived half an hour to late. A critical delay, an expert said.

These heroes couldn't make proper radio contact while trying to extinguish the fires (inside the building, I gather?).

There were problems with the hoses. They weren't strong enough to allow for a free flow of water; moreover, the water pressure was too low.

The men had to inhale toxic fumes while trying to save lives (IIRC they encountered cyanide compounds).

If I understood all of this correctly, and I have no reason to think it's not true. then here we see the bankruptcy of a criminal political ideology.


What have those problems got to do with political ideology?
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Your Friendly Neighbourhood Postman » 10 Jul 2017, 11:19

Nick wrote:
Bride Of Sea Of Tunes wrote:The firefighters experienced grave and unforgivable problems in their attempts to take the appropriate action.

The main high ladder arrived half an hour to late. A critical delay, an expert said.

These heroes couldn't make proper radio contact while trying to extinguish the fires (inside the building, I gather?).

There were problems with the hoses. They weren't strong enough to allow for a free flow of water; moreover, the water pressure was too low.

The men had to inhale toxic fumes while trying to save lives (IIRC they encountered cyanide compounds).

If I understood all of this correctly, and I have no reason to think it's not true. then here we see the bankruptcy of a criminal political ideology.


What have those problems got to do with political ideology?


Deregulation. Disregard for people's safety. Disregard for human life.

Because those in charge wanted to cut costs.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Insouciant Western People » 10 Jul 2017, 11:33

Bride Of Sea Of Tunes wrote:Deregulation. Disregard for people's safety. Disregard for human life.

Because those in charge wanted to cut costs.


It's easy to make glib assertions like that, but do you have evidence that government policies contributed to or caused any of the problems you cited?
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Your Friendly Neighbourhood Postman » 10 Jul 2017, 12:24

Nick wrote:
Bride Of Sea Of Tunes wrote:Deregulation. Disregard for people's safety. Disregard for human life.

Because those in charge wanted to cut costs.


It's easy to make glib assertions like that, but do you have evidence that government policies contributed to or caused any of the problems you cited?


I will look for these. I'm at work now, but it will be easy. I am certain about that.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Your Friendly Neighbourhood Postman » 12 Jul 2017, 15:18

On the whole, I'd rather be in Wallenpaupack.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Dr Markus » 02 Nov 2017, 18:42

What a cunt.

Grenfell Tower fraudster admits making up family deaths


http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-41844044

I think I remember channel 4 doing a show about a woman doing the same after 9/11.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Your Friendly Neighbourhood Postman » 02 Nov 2017, 18:56

I just ordered this:

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Diamond Dog » 22 May 2018, 08:42

I watched the Panorama programme last night, nearly a year on from the fire.

It appears that Celotex (the company that made the insulation) actually sold a lesser grade, less fire retardant product than they advertised and also gives off cyanide fumes when burnt. Also the management company that was responsible for the decision to go with the cladding (which was not designed to be fire resistant) never tested both cladding and insulation together.

A year on and the public inquiry opened yesterday. This is going to take years, isn't it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44200041
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby yomptepi » 22 May 2018, 15:43

Diamond Dog wrote:I watched the Panorama programme last night, nearly a year on from the fire.

It appears that Celotex (the company that made the insulation) actually sold a lesser grade, less fire retardant product than they advertised and also gives off cyanide fumes when burnt. Also the management company that was responsible for the decision to go with the cladding (which was not designed to be fire resistant) never tested both cladding and insulation together.

A year on and the public inquiry opened yesterday. This is going to take years, isn't it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44200041


Celotex make insulation. It is the procurement manager and the designer who decide which one to use, and then down to client to agree it, and then the fire brigade to approve it once it has been installed. Grenfell is above all, a testament to the abject failure of public servants. And they will all walk away with their pensions in tact whilst people flap about trying to blame politicians.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Diamond Dog » 22 May 2018, 15:59

The Fire Brigade were not asked to approve it.

Do you agree with a company getting a safety certificate for a product and then selling an inferior, altered product under the same wrapping?
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Copehead » 22 May 2018, 16:09

yomptepi wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:I watched the Panorama programme last night, nearly a year on from the fire.

It appears that Celotex (the company that made the insulation) actually sold a lesser grade, less fire retardant product than they advertised and also gives off cyanide fumes when burnt. Also the management company that was responsible for the decision to go with the cladding (which was not designed to be fire resistant) never tested both cladding and insulation together.

A year on and the public inquiry opened yesterday. This is going to take years, isn't it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44200041


Celotex make insulation. It is the procurement manager and the designer who decide which one to use, and then down to client to agree it, and then the fire brigade to approve it once it has been installed. Grenfell is above all, a testament to the abject failure of public servants. And they will all walk away with their pensions in tact whilst people flap about trying to blame politicians.


OMG you're right! Whos's thinking about the poor politicians in all of this?
All they had was political oversight and final responsibility for all of it, how can we blame them?
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Diamond Dog » 22 May 2018, 16:15

yomptepi wrote: And they will all walk away with their pensions in tact whilst people flap about trying to blame politicians.


And I'm not trying to blame politicians.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby yomptepi » 22 May 2018, 16:17

Diamond Dog wrote:The Fire Brigade were not asked to approve it.

Do you agree with a company getting a safety certificate for a product and then selling an inferior, altered product under the same wrapping?


Very unlikely that would happen. It is far more likely that a budget cap was put on the project, and savings had to be made. The fire brigade have to issue an inspection certificate for every building of multiple occupancy when ever major works are carried out to that building. The were asked, but they never got round to it. The man who was supposed to have done the inspection says he did do it but did not issue a certificate. He is the same man who should have picked up the badly installed fire doors.

If you look, Celotex, and Kingspan ( the other major manufacturer of insulation ( and we are talking only about the insulation here, not the cladding panels) make hundreds of boards to dozens of ratings for fire, acoustic and moisture. The problem as I understand it is that there are several fire ratings which are acceptable but which are not necessarily the very highest rated product. Grenfell was clad on a budget, and the work was supervised by incompetent, lazy and badly managed public servants. None of whom will be bought to book.
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