Grenfell Tower Fire - London

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby SUMPTUOUS SI » 16 Jun 2017, 14:32

Indeed. It's not a conspiracy theory.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Goat Boy » 16 Jun 2017, 14:41

On the Beeb it's saying at least 30 confirmed dead and up to 76 could be missing
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby wannabee enfant terrible » 16 Jun 2017, 15:06

The market, and those who wish to profit from it, should not be allowed anywhere near the safety net of the NHS or social housing. The whole housing sector needs govt intervention, providing a decent, safe home for those least able to afford one. Pay for some of it by introducing an "empty house tax" on those who live in the U.K. (what's left of it) for less than three months and how about a real effort to close tax loopholes and work-arounds too. Private landlords should be heavily regulated and fairly, progressively taxed.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Your Friendly Neighbourhood Postman » 16 Jun 2017, 18:21

The Modernist wrote:Well I'm blaming the Tories and their neo-liberal cohorts New Labour for failing to invest properly in public housing, including safety, and for deregulation of the markets to allow their chums to make vast profits on property speculation. I think it's directly relevent to this tragedy.

The sooner people wake up to that the better.


Agree in full.

BTW the general situation in Holland is not that different. Neoliberal greed and indifference bordering on the psychopathic rule here too, I am thinking of how the people in our province of Groningen were cheated upon, and their problems ignored, because winning gas there was very profitable for long years. There were no casualties, but we did see extreme stress, depression, and lots of houses becoming virtually worthless after local earthquakes had occurred. There's still no decent settlement for financial recompense.

No wonder if you have to struggle with a vague construct that consists of the state and Shell, amongst others.

Edit: and just as New (now Old-New) Labour is equally to blame, our own version of Labour, the PvdA, also is responsible.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Diamond Dog » 16 Jun 2017, 18:54

The Modernist wrote:Well I'm blaming the Tories and their neo-liberal cohorts New Labour for failing to invest properly in public housing, including safety, and for deregulation of the markets to allow their chums to make vast profits on property speculation. I think it's directly relevent to this tragedy.

The sooner people wake up to that the better.


Be careful G - you'll have some smart arse coming along soon to (wittily) retort "It's always 1970 somewhere, isn't it?".

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Deebank » 16 Jun 2017, 20:42

The Modernist wrote:Well I'm blaming the Tories and their neo-liberal cohorts New Labour for failing to invest properly in public housing, including safety, and for deregulation of the markets to allow their chums to make vast profits on property speculation. I think it's directly relevent to this tragedy.

The sooner people wake up to that the better.


The cost saving from not using the fire retardant cladding was less than £5000 apparently.

Fucking penny pinching Tory scum.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Snarfyguy » 17 Jun 2017, 05:38

Months Python called it 40 years ago.



Edit: I make no claim, of course, that this sketch remains funny, in light of the tragedy under discussion.
Last edited by Snarfyguy on 18 Jun 2017, 00:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Butch Manly » 17 Jun 2017, 13:25

Almost unbearably powerful:

Take a look at @trapgodlou's Tweet: https://twitter.com/trapgodlou/status/8 ... 74112?s=09
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Samoan » 18 Jun 2017, 11:31

I used to admire Clive Lewis. Not any more.
Abhorrent.

https://twitter.com/labourlewis/status/ ... 3693960193
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Jeemo » 18 Jun 2017, 11:49

Pat O'Banton wrote:Almost unbearably powerful:

Take a look at @trapgodlou's Tweet: https://twitter.com/trapgodlou/status/8 ... 74112?s=09



The numbers of victims and missing seem low compared to the size of the tower block. seems to be a lack of survivors in the media. when they are usually all over the human interest angle.

I hope I'm wrong but the death toll could be much larger than what's being reported.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Belle Lettre » 18 Jun 2017, 12:19

It may well be that Lily Allen didn't make quite such a tit of herself after all.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Diamond Dog » 18 Jun 2017, 13:19

Pat O'Banton wrote:Almost unbearably powerful:

Take a look at @trapgodlou's Tweet: https://twitter.com/trapgodlou/status/8 ... 74112?s=09


Sadly I think that's more like the truth.
As she said - there must be a known number of occupants, survivors, those in hospital and known dead. Why isn't that remaining number being released?
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Insouciant Western People » 18 Jun 2017, 18:19

This is a good and straightforward explanation, cuts through the conspiracist fake news being bandied around.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/what-official-death-toll-grenfell-10641711

The emergency services are doing it by the book.

Here's what the Metropolitan Police's major incident procedure manual has to say.

"There should be no speculation on fatality figures and the police should only confirm the number of dead after they have a true and accurate picture."
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Diamond Dog » 18 Jun 2017, 18:40

I'm not suggesting there is a conspiracy at all - i'm just saying that there appears to be wildly conflicting numbers. I understand that the police can't give numbers without bodies - but, equally, they must have a fair idea of how many people were there at the time and how many are accounted for? What harm would it do to release the approximate number of people unnaccounted for?
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Belle Lettre » 18 Jun 2017, 20:58

Latest from the Guardian:

Kensington and Chelsea council has been relieved of responsibility for taking care of the survivors of the Grenfell Tower disaster.

The work is being handed over to a new Grenfell Fire Response Team, made up of representatives from central government, the British Red Cross, the Metropolitan police, London-wide local and regional government, and the London Fire Brigade.

It is embarrassing for the council, the wealthiest in the country, to have had to cede control.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Insouciant Western People » 19 Jun 2017, 12:58

Diamond Dog wrote:I'm not suggesting there is a conspiracy at all - i'm just saying that there appears to be wildly conflicting numbers. I understand that the police can't give numbers without bodies - but, equally, they must have a fair idea of how many people were there at the time and how many are accounted for? What harm would it do to release the approximate number of people unnaccounted for?


But they have done that throughout, it was given as 58 a couple of days ago. It's now being reported as 79 dead or missing and presumed dead, by the BBC, based on people cited as missing by other survivors, friends and relatives.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Diamond Dog » 19 Jun 2017, 16:39

Nick wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:I'm not suggesting there is a conspiracy at all - i'm just saying that there appears to be wildly conflicting numbers. I understand that the police can't give numbers without bodies - but, equally, they must have a fair idea of how many people were there at the time and how many are accounted for? What harm would it do to release the approximate number of people unnaccounted for?


But they have done that throughout, it was given as 58 a couple of days ago. It's now being reported as 79 dead or missing and presumed dead, by the BBC, based on people cited as missing by other survivors, friends and relatives.


Okay. So they are updating it. So why does it keep rising? By any definition, it should be coming down, as people are found or found not to have been there.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Insouciant Western People » 20 Jun 2017, 13:15

Diamond Dog wrote:
Nick wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:I'm not suggesting there is a conspiracy at all - i'm just saying that there appears to be wildly conflicting numbers. I understand that the police can't give numbers without bodies - but, equally, they must have a fair idea of how many people were there at the time and how many are accounted for? What harm would it do to release the approximate number of people unnaccounted for?


But they have done that throughout, it was given as 58 a couple of days ago. It's now being reported as 79 dead or missing and presumed dead, by the BBC, based on people cited as missing by other survivors, friends and relatives.


Okay. So they are updating it. So why does it keep rising? By any definition, it should be coming down, as people are found or found not to have been there.


Well that's the figure for both dead and presumed missing. So I think partly it will be rising because more bodies have been found, so the number of confirmed dead goes up. But also as days go by more people will have been reported missing, so that figure is rising too.

And then there's the fact that nobody really knows yet for sure how many people were in the tower block when it caught fire. A tower block of 120 flats isn't like an airliner or a ferry, where you have a definite passenger list.

One factor is that a number of people, both among the survivors and dead, could have been undocumented illegal immigrants, and if they are dead, their families may be understandably reluctant to come forward, because they may be in a similar predicament themselves.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Diamond Dog » 20 Jun 2017, 13:20

Okay - I accept that.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Jimbo » 21 Jun 2017, 03:01





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