Grenfell Tower Fire - London

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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The Modernist
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby The Modernist » 16 Jun 2017, 12:05

The stark reality is this fire is a highly political issue. It is all about the shameful neglect of our communities in favour of profit and power.
Please everyone read this article:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... regulation

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby The Prof » 16 Jun 2017, 12:07

Nick wrote:Lily Allen speaking her brains about this on Channel 4 news last night. Why does anyone give that pillock airtime?


She was dropped from newsnight following this - apparently.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Belle Lettre » 16 Jun 2017, 12:23

The Modernist wrote:The stark reality is this fire is a highly political issue. It is all about the shameful neglect of our communities in favour of profit and power.
Please everyone read this article:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... regulation

I got my knuckles rapped for political point-scoring on Facebook..
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby The Modernist » 16 Jun 2017, 12:46

Belle Lettre wrote:
The Modernist wrote:The stark reality is this fire is a highly political issue. It is all about the shameful neglect of our communities in favour of profit and power.
Please everyone read this article:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... regulation

I got my knuckles rapped for political point-scoring on Facebook..


I haven't been on FB for a while, maybe I should return. Stick to your guns Carol because this is a debate we need to be having. What has happened to public housing is truly shameful and as we have seen can have a direct consequence of lost lives. We should very angry about that. What kind of society have we got if we stop caring about such things..?

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Dr. E. PLATE » 16 Jun 2017, 12:58

Nick wrote:Lily Allen speaking her brains about this on Channel 4 news last night. Why does anyone give that pillock airtime?


What do you mean?

She starts to visibly (and understandably) angry towards the end of the interview here, but she's talking sense all the way through:

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Goat Boy » 16 Jun 2017, 13:11

Belle Lettre wrote:
The Modernist wrote:The stark reality is this fire is a highly political issue. It is all about the shameful neglect of our communities in favour of profit and power.
Please everyone read this article:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... regulation

I got my knuckles rapped for political point-scoring on Facebook..


It is a political issue but that does not mean it is a one-party issue. As soon as this tragic event happened people were on Facebook blaming this on the Tories, pointing out the 72 Tory MPs who rejected some bill for example etc.

Some on the left sense an opportunity here. Labour is emboldened after the election, May is a "dead woman walking", Brexit talks are almost here, hard Brexit has been "rejected" etc etc. I can hear pitchforks being sharpened and it makes me feel uncomfortable. The papers are whipping this up as they always do.

There will be an investigation into this. As time goes on we will be able to apportion responsibility for this tragic event accordingly as the truth, in all its complexity and nuance will be revealed. There will also be a wider discussion around issues such as social housing, inequality and so on. As there should be.

In the meantime, however, I think some people (not a dig at you Carol) perhaps need to back away from the blame game.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Belle Lettre » 16 Jun 2017, 13:14

None taken bro x
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby The Modernist » 16 Jun 2017, 13:29

Goat Boy wrote:
It is a political issue but that does not mean it is a one-party issue. As soon as this tragic event happened people were on Facebook blaming this on the Tories, pointing out the 72 Tory MPs who rejected some bill for example etc .


The bill or (I think) amendment to the bill was a proposal that no one should live in uninhabitable conditions. The mp's opposed that because they were worried it would result in greater regulation which would basically mean landlords or property management companies having to spend more on their properties. As they all have property investments themselves, they were putting their own profits above a responsibility to ensure proper living conditions for our communities. That is absolutely relevant.
Damn right that people should be angry about that. You should be angry about it too. It is a far more important issue than a few people being beastly to Tories on FB.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Goat Boy » 16 Jun 2017, 13:38

I'm not saying it's not relevant. I'm saying until we know all the facts then we should hold off from blaming X, Y or Z.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Nick » 16 Jun 2017, 13:42

Doctor Ian Le wrote:She starts to visibly (and understandably) angry towards the end of the interview here, but she's talking sense all the way through:


It's her accusing the government and 'mainstream media' of 'downplaying' the numbers of the dead, with the implication that it's being done for political expediency. It's a baseless and crass accusation, there's no need for it.

She has form for making silly statements on Twitter following tragedies, terrorist attacks etc.
Last edited by Nick on 16 Jun 2017, 13:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Goat Boy » 16 Jun 2017, 13:45

The tin foil hats are on. That Facebook page, Never Trust A Tory, posted something similar.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby The Modernist » 16 Jun 2017, 13:45

Goat Boy wrote:I'm not saying it's not relevant. I'm saying until we know all the facts then we should hold off from blaming X, Y or Z.


But we already know quite a lot. We know that residents had been lobbying their concerns for many years and that they weren't listened to.

Let's be honest the provision of housing and the living conditions of poor people have not been on the agenda of mainstream politics for a long time. It has been swept under the carpet. If we can't talk about it now, and yes apportion blame, when can we?

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Dr. E. PLATE » 16 Jun 2017, 13:50

Nick wrote:
Doctor Ian Le wrote:She starts to visibly (and understandably) angry towards the end of the interview here, but she's talking sense all the way through:


It's her accusing the government and 'mainstream media' of 'downplaying' the numbers of the dead, with the implication that it's being done for political expediency. It's a baseless and crass accusation, there's no need for it.


I'm still trying to work this one out, to be honest. But I'm sure I'm not the only one puzzled by the fact that we've heard what appear to be relatively low numbers of deaths (the latest update mentions 30) following this terrible incident.

Snow rightly says that the numbers correspond to confirmed deaths - i.e. when the bodies have been identified - but nonetheless she makes a valid point about letting people know the truth.

I don't hear any 'silliness' there at all (altho' I know she's said some daft things in the past).

Anyway - G's right. This IS a political issue and there's no shying away from it.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby The Modernist » 16 Jun 2017, 13:52

Goat Boy wrote:The tin foil hats are on. That Facebook page, Never Trust A Tory, posted something similar.


Stop reading FB then.I don't know why you're focusing on this, when there are so many more important things we should be talking about.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Goat Boy » 16 Jun 2017, 13:55

Is it Ok if I make general comments about shit on here?

You are starting to piss me off
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Dr. E. PLATE » 16 Jun 2017, 13:58

:lol:
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Nick » 16 Jun 2017, 13:58

Doctor Ian Le wrote:I'm still trying to work this one out, to be honest. But I'm sure I'm not the only one puzzled by the fact that we've heard what appear to be relatively low numbers of deaths (the latest update mentions 30) following this terrible incident.

Snow rightly says that the numbers correspond to confirmed deaths - i.e. when the bodies have been identified - but nonetheless she makes a valid point about letting people know the truth.


Surely the simple fact is that nobody yet knows how many are dead, nor who they were? Most of the media I've seen is acknowledging that the death toll is expected to rise (to use the usual phrase), but you can't confirm deaths until you have evidence.

In a terribly destructive fire like this the bodies of the dead will be in awful states, and will consequently be harder to identify. Firefighters haven't even been able to access all areas of the building yet, heck the building itself is still very unsafe.

A little thought indicates that there is no conspiracy here, just uncertainty. And what we don't need is people like Lily Allen who are at best uninformed opening their gobs and letting fly, whipping up misplaced outrage and self-righteous fervour in what is already an extremely fraught and upsetting situation for the survivors and people who are missing friends and family.


Doctor Ian Le wrote:Anyway - G's right. This IS a political issue and there's no shying away from it.


Of course it is. But I think the point Dougie and I are trying to get at, is that it's not as simple as pointing the finger at Theresa May and 76 evil Tories. Which is why an independent public inquiry and/or an inquest is needed.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Dr. E. PLATE » 16 Jun 2017, 14:06

Nick wrote:
Doctor Ian Le wrote:I'm still trying to work this one out, to be honest. But I'm sure I'm not the only one puzzled by the fact that we've heard what appear to be relatively low numbers of deaths (the latest update mentions 30) following this terrible incident.

Snow rightly says that the numbers correspond to confirmed deaths - i.e. when the bodies have been identified - but nonetheless she makes a valid point about letting people know the truth.


Surely the simple fact is that nobody yet knows how many are dead, nor who they were? Most of the media I've seen is acknowledging that the death toll is expected to rise (to use the usual phrase), but you can't confirm deaths until you have evidence.

In a terribly destructive fire like this the bodies of the dead will be in awful states, and will consequently be harder to identify. Firefighters haven't even been able to access all areas of the building yet, heck the building itself is still very unsafe.

A little thought indicates that there is no conspiracy here, just uncertainty. And what we don't need is people like Lily Allen who are at best uninformed opening their gobs and letting fly, whipping up misplaced outrage and self-righteous fervour in what is already an extremely fraught and upsetting situation for the survivors and people who are missing friends and family.


The number she mentioned (around 150) is what she herself has heard from people 'on the ground'. She didn't invent a figure. She clearly talked to people and they're probably confused as to why the real numbers haven't been talked about - even if they're estimates. I think it's vitally important information.


But I think the point Dougie and I are trying to get at, is that it's not as simple as pointing the finger at Theresa May and 76 evil Tories. Which is why an independent public inquiry and/or an inquest is needed.


I made the same point about not pointing the figure at so-called evil Tories.

And Lily Allen made a big point about an independent enquiry at the end of the interview - didn't you hear her?

Anyway I'm not going to spend half my Friday afternoon defending Lily fucking Allen!
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby Nick » 16 Jun 2017, 14:10

Doctor Ian Le wrote:The number she mentioned (around 150) is what she herself has heard from people 'on the ground'. She didn't invent a figure. She clearly talked to people and they're probably confused as to why the real numbers haven't been estimated.


I'm sure she was told that figure by the emergency services on the ground. It's probably a pretty accurate estimate. But she didn't simply say that. She extrapolated it into a half-baked conspiracy theory.

Doctor Ian Le wrote:Anyway I'm not going to spend half my Friday afternoon defending Lily fucking Allen!


Me neither!
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire - London

Postby The Modernist » 16 Jun 2017, 14:28

Well I'm blaming the Tories and their neo-liberal cohorts New Labour for failing to invest properly in public housing, including safety, and for deregulation of the markets to allow their chums to make vast profits on property speculation. I think it's directly relevent to this tragedy.

The sooner people wake up to that the better.