Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Goat Boy » 11 May 2017, 08:32

clive gash wrote:Stalin's activities v Big Big Train.

The jury is still out.


:)
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Re: Countries With A Horrific Past.....

Postby Geezee » 11 May 2017, 09:32

Toby wrote:
Pat O'Banton wrote:
And then there are those that seem to think they're actually the good guys - the USA being the obvious one.


Well, they did actually win WW2 for us, saving Asia from a horrific Japanese empire and save the rest of Europe from being swallowed by Communism.

I don't doubt their imperialism for one second and the rest of their chequered history, but for once they got it right there, quite significantly so as well.


Having gone to an American school for quite a few years, I think the US actually does a fairly good job of educating its children about slavery and even native Indians (notwithtstanding some creative jumping around Thanksgiving) - certainly much better than British schools over the dark side of the empire in my experience. But for sure, American schools leave in no doubt that the US is a force for global good (indeed the "best" country), and that the past is the past.

While of course the Americans did "get it right" in WWII, let's make no mistake over who actually turned the war: the USSR. Just because again a country might have done many admirable things, it in no way excuses or overshadows the awfulness of everything else.

I don't in any way understand how Britain is a "less obvious" in having a dreadful past.
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Re: Countries With A Horrific Past.....

Postby Goat Boy » 11 May 2017, 10:52

Pat O'Banton wrote:
Count Machuki wrote:Not to be That Guy, but which countries DON'T have horrific pasts?


A decent point, given the thread title, but there are - there must be - some countries with more dreadful pasts than others.

Some are easy to name. Germany - tick. Japan - tick. Russia - tick.

Others are maybe a bit less obvious but still lamentable - Britain, Spain - Belgium, even. Argentina, I suppose.

And then there are those that seem to think they're actually the good guys - the USA being the obvious one. Australia, too. Both countries built on genocides and still harbouring barely-hidden prejudices against their indigenous peoples and their non-white citizens. But hey, isn't life great? Chuck another shrimp on the barbie, dude.



America is a bit different of course. Partly because of its revolutionary origins and the merits of the constitution. Partly because there is a group of people who believe Americas destiny is guided by God or some shit and partly because post WW2 America tried to curtail the spread of communism and, in recent years, terror. Although the former was informed by realpolitik rather than more noble intentions perhaps. Australia sees it itself as a “classless” society I guess and it certainly is to a greater degree than over here. I have no idea what is taught in Australian schools. I remember seeing Aborigines sniffing petrol on the west coast and a few drunken scraps in Queensland. In particular I recall one old lady who had her tits out (seriously) and was leaving a gas station sniffing petrol. It was quite shocking to me but I imagine lots of Aussies never see such things so the current plight of some in that community (I think these poor bastards have actually left their communities due to substance abuse problems however) is probably very much outta sight.

Don’t most countries see themselves as the “good guys” though? Isn’t that just sorta natural? I mean I’m sure many in Nazi Germany thought they were the good guys too, you know?

I think there’s a weird phenomenon with groups of people where you have this strange kind of collective amnesia. In the same way that individuals can blank out/compartmentalise traumatic incidents in their past, groups of people can too, whole societies in fact. I’m sure this sorta thing occurs everywhere. Germany is a an example of a country that has been forced more than most to face up to its darkest period simply because Nazi Germany was singular and its consequences so appalling and far reaching. It's become a synonym for Evil.
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby The Great Defector » 11 May 2017, 10:56

Goat Boy wrote:He just says we are less obvious than Germany



.......and Japan and Russia. I disagreed about Japan and Russia. I think Britain would get mentioned before those too.
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby The Great Defector » 11 May 2017, 10:59

I don't know Australian history, but were the indigenous people being treated badly before the British landed?


EDIT

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia


Looked it up, so the Dutch landed but made no attempt to invade so to speak but the British landed.......... :?


Griff doesn't teach history does he?
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Geezee » 11 May 2017, 11:00

One can of course also make a very strong case that Truman is the worst mass murderer in history.
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Toby » 11 May 2017, 11:04

Geezee wrote:One can of course also make a very strong case that Truman is the worst mass murderer in history.


Just as we could say that Hitler is the father of modern Europe.

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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Geezee » 11 May 2017, 11:10

Toby wrote:
Geezee wrote:One can of course also make a very strong case that Truman is the worst mass murderer in history.


Just as we could say that Hitler is the father of modern Europe.


Really, how?
Truman is a fact. One can argue about the motivations etc - set against his well-documented willingness to kill as many Germans and Russians as possible depending on who was winning - but not about his status as the most effective executioner of civilians on earth. I don't quite see that Hitler being the father of modern Europe is in any way parallel to that. Yes, if there were no Jews or Slavs in Europe and dictatorships across the continent, and no European Union etc, but I don't quite see that being the case.
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Toby » 11 May 2017, 11:15

I don't think Truman set out to kill out innocent Japanese people. But he was faced with a situation where his military advisers, based on what was going on in Okinawa, told him that American military casualties could top 1 million if he wanted to invade Japan. The war had to end.

Hitler didn't set out to create modern Europe, but he bequeathed Germany a modern economy that was second only to the Americans. He destroyed the aristocratic class and provided, unwittingly, the conditions for an egalitarian society that West Germany was born out of. The invasion and subsequent occupation of France provided a generation of both French and German technocrats with the dialogue and experience of working together that would create the French-German relationship in the fifties that the European Union was born out of. These situations were created by the imposition of National Socialism and Hitler's decision to rearm and go to war.

Just as France's generally egalitarian society is a result of the French revolution, Germany's was created through both World Wars. Britain is an unequal society because we have not had the trauma of violent revolution for nearly 400 years.

It works both ways I feel.

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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Geezee » 11 May 2017, 11:31

Toby wrote:I don't think Truman set out to kill out innocent Japanese people. But he was faced with a situation where his military advisers, based on what was going on in Okinawa, told him that American military casualties could top 1 million if he wanted to invade Japan. The war had to end.

Hitler didn't set out to create modern Europe, but he bequeathed Germany a modern economy that was second only to the Americans. He destroyed the aristocratic class and provided, unwittingly, the conditions for an egalitarian society that West Germany was born out of. The invasion and subsequent occupation of France provided a generation of both French and German technocrats with the dialogue and experience of working together that would create the French-German relationship in the fifties that the European Union was born out of. These situations were created by the imposition of National Socialism and Hitler's decision to rearm and go to war.

Just as France's generally egalitarian society is a result of the French revolution, Germany's was created through both World Wars. Britain is an unequal society because we have not had the trauma of violent revolution for nearly 400 years.

It works both ways I feel.


Of course Truman set out to kill innocent people. That was the whole point. And even better that it was a different race. Again, the justification, or lack thereof, is not the point here - Stalin and Hitler would argue that their victims were enemies just as much as the Japanese were to Truman.

Also think it's entirely incorrect to attribute Germany's economic growth or the Coal/Steel alliance to Hitler - which can just be easily be argued as happening in spite of and against the legacy of Hitler. It has just as much or more to do with a) the division of Germany itself b) enormous Western investment in post-war West Germany and c) Konrad Adenaeur's industrial policy. Plus Germany (even pre-unification) was always a key economic powerhouse in Europe, either with or without Hitler, and while it's an important feature of Europe today, it is hardly the defining one. The French/German alliance is also far more complicated than attributing it in any way to Hitler as the "father" of it - by that definition, you have thousands and thousands of fathers and mothers of it going back to Napoleon and Bismarck.
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Toby » 11 May 2017, 11:42

Geezee wrote:Plus Germany (even pre-unification) was always a key economic powerhouse in Europe, either with or without Hitler, and while it's an important feature of Europe today, it is hardly the defining one.


Well, France and Germany got on spectacularly between 1870 and 1945 didn't they?

And to suggest that Germany's economy isn't the defining aspect of Europe, then I think you need to look at their surplus.

My point is though is that these are interpretations. I fully expect people to denigrate my analysis of Hitler because his actions still loom large today as the instigator (although not documented) of the Holocaust. Just as your analysis of Truman is that he was a mass murderer, even though he was not tried for his crimes or perceived to be one at the time.

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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Geezee » 11 May 2017, 11:54

Toby wrote: I fully expect people to denigrate my analysis of Hitler because his actions still loom large today as the instigator (although not documented) of the Holocaust. e.


No, they will denigrate them because they are completely wrong.
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Geezee » 11 May 2017, 11:55

Toby wrote:
Geezee wrote:Plus Germany (even pre-unification) was always a key economic powerhouse in Europe, either with or without Hitler, and while it's an important feature of Europe today, it is hardly the defining one.


Well, France and Germany got on spectacularly between 1870 and 1945 didn't they?


Exactly - and Hitler was a total continuation of that, and the Coal and Steel Union was a break from that past. so in no way is Hitler a father of it, or if you call him that, then there are thousands of others who were also fathers of it to the point where it becomes an entirely meaningless thing to say - which it is.
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Geezee » 11 May 2017, 12:03

[quote="Toby"]

And to suggest that Germany's economy isn't the defining aspect of Europe, then I think you need to look at their surplus.
[quote="Toby"]


Germany is the strongest economy in Europe - pretty much always has been one way or another - but it also runs up huge (illegal) deficits and the defining feature of Europe, in my mind, perhaps naively, is collective decision-making through peaceful and diverse negotiation of connected but different economies - entirely against what Hitler was envisaging. Sweden's economy was far more tied to Germany pre-WWII than it is now. And if Germany was so all-powerful and dominant, why was it left to essentially two countries to deal with the refugee crisis (that was largely caused by British (and US) foreign policy)?
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Geezee » 11 May 2017, 14:33

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Re: Countries With A Horrific Past.....

Postby Nick » 11 May 2017, 14:57

Copehead wrote:Have a think for a minute about whether you believe that Corbyn and McDonnell, as social democrats, support the policies followed by the Soviet Union.

Then ask yourself why you posted what you did.

Then report the answer back to us.


It doesn't matter whether they support the policies of the USSR - and if you'd read my post properly you'd have seen that I didn't suggest they did.

The fact remains that neither of them displayed any qualms at the time about appearing at events with people who very much do support the policies of the USSR, and not only that, who actively glorify the likes of Stalin and Mao Zedong. Google the photos, they're easy to find.

Now imagine the shelf life of a mainstream politician who appeared at events where there were neo-Nazis waving banners featuring the swastika and pictures of Hitler & Goebbels, but who tried to excuse that by saying "well, I don't actually support their policies..."

James Bloodworth (a socialist writer, before you say anything) sums it up here:

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2014/05/ive-just-seen-nazi-banners-in-trafalgar-square-well-almost/
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Re: Countries With A Horrific Past.....

Postby Deebank » 11 May 2017, 15:11

Nick wrote:
Copehead wrote:Have a think for a minute about whether you believe that Corbyn and McDonnell, as social democrats, support the policies followed by the Soviet Union.

Then ask yourself why you posted what you did.

Then report the answer back to us.


It doesn't matter whether they support the policies of the USSR - and if you'd read my post properly you'd have seen that I didn't suggest they did.

The fact remains that neither of them displayed any qualms at the time about appearing at events with people who very much do support the policies of the USSR, and not only that, who actively glorify the likes of Stalin and Mao Zedong. Google the photos, they're easy to find.

Now imagine the shelf life of a mainstream politician who appeared at events where there were neo-Nazis waving banners featuring the swastika and pictures of Hitler & Goebbels, but who tried to excuse that by saying "well, I don't actually support their policies..."

James Bloodworth (a socialist writer, before you say anything) sums it up here:

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2014/05/ive-just-seen-nazi-banners-in-trafalgar-square-well-almost/


Having been involved in the labour movement in my younger days I would state with some confidence that pretty much every Labour MP over a certain age has probably shared a platform with communists and Maoists and their various banners and flags - there may even have been the odd Stalinist (I doubt they'd have called themselves that mind you), that does not mean that they endorse their views of course. Those Labour MPs that are still active campaigners - Corbyn and McDonnell among them - I suspect still do this to this day, although I wouldn't have thought there were too many hammers and sickles touting CPGB members around these days and as for things like the Revolutionary Communist Party ('Arm the Serbs' - that was one of theirs!), they morphed into Spiked which you yourself have endorsed from time to time if memory serves.
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Re: Countries With A Horrific Past.....

Postby Nick » 11 May 2017, 15:41

Deebank wrote:Having been involved in the labour movement in my younger days I would state with some confidence that pretty much every Labour MP over a certain age has probably shared a platform with communists and Maoists and their various banners and flags - there may even have been the odd Stalinist (I doubt they'd have called themselves that mind you), that does not mean that they endorse their views of course. Those Labour MPs that are still active campaigners - Corbyn and McDonnell among them - I suspect still do this to this day, although I wouldn't have thought there were too many hammers and sickles touting CPGB members around these days


It was the CPGB-ML lot who Bloodworth is talking about, and there were a fair few of them at those May Days, by the looks of it. They turned up with stalls and posters of Stalin, Mao etc in Manchester during the last Labour and Tory conferences held here too.

I've been on marches and demos myself where there've been some very unsavoury and odd far-left types around. The difference is, I'm not the leader or a front bench shadow cabinet member of a mainstream political party that desperately needs to appeal to an awful lot of centrist floating voters, people who look at communist flags and think "ugh".


Deebank wrote:and as for things like the Revolutionary Communist Party ('Arm the Serbs' - that was one of theirs!), they morphed into Spiked which you yourself have endorsed from time to time if memory serves.


I've posted articles over the years from all sorts of people, if I've thought they had a good point or made for interesting reading. Again though, I'm not a political candidate standing for office, nor am I ever going to be.
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Fonz » 11 May 2017, 16:11

Stalin killed many many times more if his own countrymen than Truman killed Japanese.
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Re: Countries With A Horrific Past.....

Postby Nick » 11 May 2017, 17:53

Nick wrote:
Deebank wrote:Having been involved in the labour movement in my younger days I would state with some confidence that pretty much every Labour MP over a certain age has probably shared a platform with communists and Maoists and their various banners and flags - there may even have been the odd Stalinist (I doubt they'd have called themselves that mind you), that does not mean that they endorse their views of course. Those Labour MPs that are still active campaigners - Corbyn and McDonnell among them - I suspect still do this to this day, although I wouldn't have thought there were too many hammers and sickles touting CPGB members around these days


It was the CPGB-ML lot who Bloodworth is talking about, and there were a fair few of them at those May Days, by the looks of it. They turned up with stalls and posters of Stalin, Mao etc in Manchester during the last Labour and Tory conferences held here too.

I've been on a couple of marches and demos myself where there have been some very unsavoury and odd far-left types around. One difference is, I'm not the leader or a front bench shadow cabinet member of a mainstream political party that desperately needs to appeal to an awful lot of centrist floating voters, people who look at communist flags and think "ugh".

But also, I should add that when I did go on those demos, I was politically naive and didn't realise who I was potentially being seen to align myself with. And more importantly, it's the presence of those pillocks that is one of the main reasons I no longer go on demos and marches.


Deebank wrote:and as for things like the Revolutionary Communist Party ('Arm the Serbs' - that was one of theirs!), they morphed into Spiked which you yourself have endorsed from time to time if memory serves.


I've posted articles over the years from all sorts of people, if I've thought they had a good point or made for interesting reading. Again though, I'm not a political candidate standing for office, nor am I ever going to be.
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