Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Pat O'Banton
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Pat O'Banton » 10 May 2017, 20:31

Goat Boy wrote:I suspect most countries sweep certain things under the carpet. Look at Japan for crying out loud.


One might expect it from the politicians; it's lamentable that academia follows suit.
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Deebank » 10 May 2017, 20:31

Belle Lettre wrote:
Deebank wrote:
The Prof wrote:They farmed, they traded, they made pottery. No army and no depictions of battles on any drawings or art.
Crucially no machine guns or evidence of nuclear arsenals found to date.


You sure Prof?
You not read Eric Von Daniken's seminal works that provide strong* proof that many ancient civilisations destroyed themselves with thermo-nuclear war?

*utter cobblers.

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The same!

Egyptians with giant light bulbs, the Baghdad battery, ancient space men etc ... all utter bollocks ... although to be fair the Antithykera computer is an actual computer apparently.
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Re: Countries With A Horrific Past.....

Postby Pat O'Banton » 10 May 2017, 20:41

Count Machuki wrote:Not to be That Guy, but which countries DON'T have horrific pasts?


A decent point, given the thread title, but there are - there must be - some countries with more dreadful pasts than others.

Some are easy to name. Germany - tick. Japan - tick. Russia - tick.

Others are maybe a bit less obvious but still lamentable - Britain, Spain - Belgium, even. Argentina, I suppose.

And then there are those that seem to think they're actually the good guys - the USA being the obvious one. Australia, too. Both countries built on genocides and still harbouring barely-hidden prejudices against their indigenous peoples and their non-white citizens. But hey, isn't life great? Chuck another shrimp on the barbie, dude.
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Re: Countries With A Horrific Past.....

Postby Toby » 10 May 2017, 20:52

Pat O'Banton wrote:
And then there are those that seem to think they're actually the good guys - the USA being the obvious one.


Well, they did actually win WW2 for us, saving Asia from a horrific Japanese empire and save the rest of Europe from being swallowed by Communism.

I don't doubt their imperialism for one second and the rest of their chequered history, but for once they got it right there, quite significantly so as well.

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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby 'O' » 10 May 2017, 20:57

He won't be having that. :)
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Re: Countries With A Horrific Past.....

Postby The Great Defector » 10 May 2017, 21:33

Pat O'Banton wrote:
Count Machuki wrote:Not to be That Guy, but which countries DON'T have horrific pasts?


A decent point, given the thread title, but there are - there must be - some countries with more dreadful pasts than others.

Some are easy to name. Germany - tick. Japan - tick. Russia - tick.

Others are maybe a bit less obvious but still lamentable - Britain, Spain - Belgium, even. Argentina, I suppose.



:lol: Britain before Japan and Russia, don't sell yourselves short. :lol:
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Re: Countries With A Horrific Past.....

Postby The Great Defector » 10 May 2017, 21:37

Pat O'Banton wrote:And then there are those that seem to think they're actually the good guys - the USA being the obvious one. Australia, too. Both countries built on genocides and still harbouring barely-hidden prejudices against their indigenous peoples and their non-white citizens. But hey, isn't life great? Chuck another shrimp on the barbie, dude.


Does it matter if you do this in your own country or a different country? Isn't it pretty much all the same no matter where it happened?
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Re: Countries With A Horrific Past.....

Postby Goat Boy » 10 May 2017, 23:06

The Great Defector wrote:
Pat O'Banton wrote:
Count Machuki wrote:Not to be That Guy, but which countries DON'T have horrific pasts?


A decent point, given the thread title, but there are - there must be - some countries with more dreadful pasts than others.

Some are easy to name. Germany - tick. Japan - tick. Russia - tick.

Others are maybe a bit less obvious but still lamentable - Britain, Spain - Belgium, even. Argentina, I suppose.



:lol: Britain before Japan and Russia, don't sell yourselves short. :lol:


How many died "unnaturally" in Stalins Russia? We're talking tens of millions, no?
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Re: Countries With A Horrific Past.....

Postby The Great Defector » 10 May 2017, 23:23

Goat Boy wrote:
The Great Defector wrote:
Pat O'Banton wrote:
A decent point, given the thread title, but there are - there must be - some countries with more dreadful pasts than others.

Some are easy to name. Germany - tick. Japan - tick. Russia - tick.

Others are maybe a bit less obvious but still lamentable - Britain, Spain - Belgium, even. Argentina, I suppose.



:lol: Britain before Japan and Russia, don't sell yourselves short. :lol:


How many died "unnaturally" in Stalins Russia? We're talking tens of millions, no?


That's the thing, we're talking about which comes first to mind not stats. If you want to do a world wide survey, I'm willing to bet loads of money, Britain will be named before Japan and Russia. Of course I'm biased, but still confident.

Plus if want, you think in total the British empire hasn't killed tens of millions over the centuries. I don't think time can be used as an excuse either.
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Goat Boy » 10 May 2017, 23:51

Is that what we are talking about? :? How does one measure these things? How does one get a balanced view of a countries past? The empire was far ranging so people the world over hate the brits. Trying to get a more nuanced view of the empire is very hard though. Clearly it did have a positive impact in some ways: infrastructure, introduction of more advanced medicine and so on but at what cost? These are difficult subjects to wrestle with understandably which is why I mentioned Niall Ferguson because he has offered a different perspective than some.
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Re: Countries With A Horrific Past.....

Postby Rayge » 10 May 2017, 23:54

The Great Defector wrote:Plus if want, you think in total the British empire hasn't killed tens of millions over the centuries. I don't think time can be used as an excuse either.

As you know, Marcus, I'm the last person t defend British history, and the country's role in foisting industrialization, slavery, capitalism, brigandage, the Beatles and other horrors on the world, but as a point of order, the British Empire as an Empire only existed for about 150-200 years maximum. Although English and Scottiosh colonization started in the 17th century in Africa and North America, Britain wasn't even Britain until the Act of Union in 1706, and the Empire only got started with the East India Company's take-over of India at the end of the 18th century.
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Re: Countries With A Horrific Past.....

Postby The Great Defector » 10 May 2017, 23:57

Rayge wrote:
The Great Defector wrote:Plus if want, you think in total the British empire hasn't killed tens of millions over the centuries. I don't think time can be used as an excuse either.

As you know, Marcus, I'm the last person t defend British history, and the country's role in foisting industrialization, slavery, capitalism, brigandage, the Beatles and other horrors on the world, but as a point of order, the British Empire as an Empire only existed for about 150-200 years maximum. Although English and Scottiosh colonization started in the 17th century in Africa and North America, Britain wasn't even Britain until the Act of Union in 1706, and the Empire only got started with the East India Company's take-over of India at the end of the 18th century.



Fine, we'll start from that date if you want.
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby The Great Defector » 11 May 2017, 00:03

Goat Boy wrote:Is that what we are talking about? :? How does one measure these things? How does one get a balanced view of a countries past? The empire was far ranging so people the world over hate the brits. Trying to get a more nuanced view of the empire is very hard though. Clearly it did have a positive impact in some ways: infrastructure, introduction of more advanced medicine and so on but at what cost? These are difficult subjects to wrestle with understandably which is why I mentioned Niall Ferguson because he has offered a different perspective than some.


Hey man, Griff bought up which comes to mind first when of countries with horrific pasts. He doesn't think Britain would comes to mind say after the Germans. I disagreed. So we're not talking about what good came about just about what atrocities were done.
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Re: Countries With A Horrific Past.....

Postby Nick » 11 May 2017, 00:31

Goat Boy wrote:How many died "unnaturally" in Stalins Russia? We're talking tens of millions, no?


Quite. And we have Corbyn & McDonnell happily appearing in front of the flag of Soviet Communism within the last year - McDonnell within the last ten days.

Let's take a moment to consider the entirely justifiable and normal outrage that would greet a politician standing on a platform in front of Nazi flags. Strangely though, Corbyn's fanclub don't seem to have a problem with him doing the moral equivalent.
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Re: Countries With A Horrific Past.....

Postby Nick » 11 May 2017, 00:33

.
Last edited by Nick on 11 May 2017, 14:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby echolalia » 11 May 2017, 01:53

Rose Island

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They never did no-one no harm.

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They lived on sales of postage stamps and fish sandwiches.

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Then the government came along and blew them out of the water :x

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Re: Countries With A Horrific Past.....

Postby Fonz » 11 May 2017, 06:38

Toby wrote:
Pat O'Banton wrote:
And then there are those that seem to think they're actually the good guys - the USA being the obvious one.


Well, they did actually win WW2 for us, saving Asia from a horrific Japanese empire and save the rest of Europe from being swallowed by Communism.

I don't doubt their imperialism for one second and the rest of their chequered history, but for once they got it right there, quite significantly so as well.


If they'd got involved in Europe a lot quicker, especially if they'd made it clear to Hitler that that was going to happen if he pursued his Big plan, maybe Hitler's aspirations could have been curtailed a lot sooner. They only got involved when they really had to.
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Re: Countries With A Horrific Past.....

Postby Copehead » 11 May 2017, 07:39

Nick wrote:
Goat Boy wrote:How many died "unnaturally" in Stalins Russia? We're talking tens of millions, no?


Quite. And we have Corbyn & McDonnell happily appearing in front of the flag of Soviet Communism within the last year - McDonnell within the last ten days.

Let's take a moment to consider the entirely justifiable and normal outrage that would greet a politician standing on a platform in front of Nazi flags. Strangely though, Corbyn's fanclub don't seem to have a problem with him doing the moral equivalent.


Nice big chunk of right wing fake news swallowed whole, I hope you didn't get indigestion.

Have a think for a minute about whether you believe that Corbyn and McDonnell, as social democrats, support the policies followed by the Soviet Union.

Then ask yourself why you posted what you did.

Then report the answer back to us.
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Goat Boy » 11 May 2017, 08:09

The Great Defector wrote:
Goat Boy wrote:Is that what we are talking about? :? How does one measure these things? How does one get a balanced view of a countries past? The empire was far ranging so people the world over hate the brits. Trying to get a more nuanced view of the empire is very hard though. Clearly it did have a positive impact in some ways: infrastructure, introduction of more advanced medicine and so on but at what cost? These are difficult subjects to wrestle with understandably which is why I mentioned Niall Ferguson because he has offered a different perspective than some.


Hey man, Griff bought up which comes to mind first when of countries with horrific pasts. He doesn't think Britain would comes to mind say after the Germans. I disagreed. So we're not talking about what good came about just about what atrocities were done.


Well Griff was giving his opinion and trying to rank them somehow. I don't know why you mentioned some kind of world wide poll as a metric, that's all. He clearly mentions Britain as well so he's hardly forgotten about us! He just says we are less obvious than Germany

I mentioned the number of deaths just to suggest it might not be laughable to suggest Britain is lower than Russia in the awfulness stakes
Last edited by Goat Boy on 11 May 2017, 08:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby clive gash » 11 May 2017, 08:22

Stalin's activities v Big Big Train.

The jury is still out.
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