Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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echolalia
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby echolalia » 09 May 2017, 23:56

Portugal has a serious problem with its role in the Atlantic slave trade from the 15th to 19th centuries (between six and twelve million Africans sold). Even today it’s a subject that’s only very lightly touched upon in the schools.

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echolalia
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby echolalia » 09 May 2017, 23:57

Geezee wrote:
Toby wrote: The Vikings could get across the sea quicker than it took the time to ride from London to York.


Is that true?
I love facts like that. Even if they are not true. 8-)

I think it’s only fairly recently (with cars etc.) that travel by land has become quicker than travel by sea. It’s a massively important historical factor, because in all those centuries when sea travel was the quicker option, the sea would have been conceived differently to what it is now – not as something that separates, but something that connects.

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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby fange » 10 May 2017, 05:35

echolalia wrote:
Geezee wrote:
Toby wrote: The Vikings could get across the sea quicker than it took the time to ride from London to York.


Is that true?
I love facts like that. Even if they are not true. 8-)

I think it’s only fairly recently (with cars etc.) that travel by land has become quicker than travel by sea. It’s a massively important historical factor, because in all those centuries when sea travel was the quicker option, the sea would have been conceived differently to what it is now – not as something that separates, but something that connects.


Yeah, very much so. It's one of the reasons why larger human settlements have generally been around the sea or large inland waterways with access to the sea until very recent history. Creating faster and safer water craft has been one of the major driving forces of human progress.

On the question at hand ... it'd probably be more interesting to try and pinpoint a country which doesn't have some horrible, blood-soaked chapters in their true histories. As a species, it's an undeniable part of our shared past.
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Loki » 10 May 2017, 06:43

Harvey K-Tel wrote:Any Canadian history course I've ever taken has pretty much glossed over our disgraceful treatment of First Nations people


And the Japanese internment camps during WWII. Shameful.
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby fange » 10 May 2017, 08:10

.
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Tactful Cactus » 10 May 2017, 11:06

Anyone mention Belgium yet? (maybe the first time that questions been asked). Late to the party in terms of colonialism, but they made up for that in brutality and exploitation in the Belgian Congo. So much so that their reputation fuelled the fire for humanitarianism in Europe.

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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Toby » 10 May 2017, 11:14

The thing is, when we hear the word "empire", there is a presumption that this is exploitative and generally bad. Whilst the Roman empire for example was built partly slavery and the conquering of peoples, Roman law, the spread of romance languages and all sorts of other aspect of culture and infrastructure did have a beneficial effect to a certain extent.

I think we have to be careful with the binary view of empire/oppressed peoples who are innocent.

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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby The Prof » 10 May 2017, 11:22

I don't think there's a Horrible Histories book on The Minoans of Crete.

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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Tactful Cactus » 10 May 2017, 11:45

Toby wrote:The thing is, when we hear the word "empire", there is a presumption that this is exploitative and generally bad. Whilst the Roman empire for example was built partly slavery and the conquering of peoples, Roman law, the spread of romance languages and all sorts of other aspect of culture and infrastructure did have a beneficial effect to a certain extent.

I think we have to be careful with the binary view of empire/oppressed peoples who are innocent.



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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby WG Kaspar » 10 May 2017, 12:38

The Prof wrote:I don't think there's a Horrible Histories book on The Minoans of Crete.

They were hardly saints but historical data of ancient civilizations on such things are really hard to find.
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby The Prof » 10 May 2017, 12:59

They farmed, they traded, they made pottery. No army and no depictions of battles on any drawings or art.
Crucially no machine guns or evidence of nuclear arsenals found to date.

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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby The Great Defector » 10 May 2017, 13:00

The Prof wrote:They farmed, they traded, they made pottery. No army and no depictions of battles on any drawings or art.


Fake news.
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Jimbo » 10 May 2017, 13:17

Toby wrote:The thing is, when we hear the word "empire", there is a presumption that this is exploitative and generally bad. Whilst the Roman empire for example was built partly slavery and the conquering of peoples, Roman law, the spread of romance languages and all sorts of other aspect of culture and infrastructure did have a beneficial effect to a certain extent.

I think we have to be careful with the binary view of empire/oppressed peoples who are innocent.


The problem is what these empires do with the ingrates who don't appreciate those niceties.
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby WG Kaspar » 10 May 2017, 16:51

The Prof wrote:They farmed, they traded, they made pottery. No army and no depictions of battles on any drawings or art.
Crucially no machine guns or evidence of nuclear arsenals found to date.

Come on man. A civilization that lasted nearly 2000 years and no wars?
I'm pretty sure there are artifacts of war in the museums in Crete.
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Goat Boy » 10 May 2017, 16:57

I meant to check out Niall Fergusons show about the British empire but never got round to it
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Deebank » 10 May 2017, 19:35

The Prof wrote:They farmed, they traded, they made pottery. No army and no depictions of battles on any drawings or art.
Crucially no machine guns or evidence of nuclear arsenals found to date.


You sure Prof?
You not read Eric Von Daniken's seminal works that provide strong* proof that many ancient civilisations destroyed themselves with thermo-nuclear war?

*utter cobblers.
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Toby » 10 May 2017, 19:49

The Prof wrote:They farmed, they traded, they made pottery. No army and no depictions of battles on any drawings or art.
Crucially no machine guns or evidence of nuclear arsenals found to date.


I'd be skeptical of the notion that they were peaceful. The economy of most civilisations around that time was one of seasonal raiding and booty. It was what most European peoples reverted to in the West after the Roman empire collapsed.

The period of the Bronze Age Aegean is what the Homeric epics are essentially based on. Fortress-based cultures like that of the Argives, Mycenaeans, Trojans/Hittites who engaged in seasonal warfare (the winter Aegean is particularly nasty) against their neighbours. I'm sure the Minoans engaged in it too given the scant agricultural resources that Crete has, although some suggest that they may have been a client of Egypt.

Most scholars believe that the whole region was subjected to a series of catastrophic natural disasters (Santorini had already been devastated around 1500 BCE) and wars involving the mysterious "Sea Peoples" around 1179 BCE. There is very little evidence for the Archaic Age of Greece, albeit that a new language emerged out of Linear B and by 630 CE Homer (and maybe an assistant) had composed both the Iliad and the Odyssey. All wonderfully fascinating.

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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Count Machuki » 10 May 2017, 19:52

Toby wrote:...seasonal raiding and booty.



Nice work if you can get it!
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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Belle Lettre » 10 May 2017, 20:05

Deebank wrote:
The Prof wrote:They farmed, they traded, they made pottery. No army and no depictions of battles on any drawings or art.
Crucially no machine guns or evidence of nuclear arsenals found to date.


You sure Prof?
You not read Eric Von Daniken's seminal works that provide strong* proof that many ancient civilisations destroyed themselves with thermo-nuclear war?

*utter cobblers.

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Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Pat O'Banton » 10 May 2017, 20:29

The Great Defector wrote:
The same with English history teachers about the horrors the British inflicted over the years (some of which were carried out by Irish men fighting for the British in the latter years).


Sadly, Britain's shamefully imperialist past was never presented in the slightest way negatively to me in school. At university, maybe a tad more so, but the general feel in this country is that Great Britain went out and civilised the world by conquering and exploiting it.
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