Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
User avatar
Copehead
BCB Cup Stalinist
Posts: 22340
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 18:51
Location: at sea

Re: Countries With A Horrific Past.....

Postby Copehead » 11 May 2017, 21:48

Nick wrote:
Copehead wrote:Have a think for a minute about whether you believe that Corbyn and McDonnell, as social democrats, support the policies followed by the Soviet Union.

Then ask yourself why you posted what you did.

Then report the answer back to us.


It doesn't matter whether they support the policies of the USSR - and if you'd read my post properly you'd have seen that I didn't suggest they did.

The fact remains that neither of them displayed any qualms at the time about appearing at events with people who very much do support the policies of the USSR, and not only that, who actively glorify the likes of Stalin and Mao Zedong. Google the photos, they're easy to find.

Now imagine the shelf life of a mainstream politician who appeared at events where there were neo-Nazis waving banners featuring the swastika and pictures of Hitler & Goebbels, but who tried to excuse that by saying "well, I don't actually support their policies..."

James Bloodworth (a socialist writer, before you say anything) sums it up here:

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2014/05/ive-just-seen-nazi-banners-in-trafalgar-square-well-almost/


You problem seems to be you cannot get you head a round a couple of rather salient points; talking at events that are also hosting people whose ideology you do not follow does not mean that you follow that ideology, you still don't follow that ideology. That is a tricky one I'll grant. Secondly the flag of the Soviet Union is not on a par with the Swastika any more than that the Union Jack is.

Just because the British Empire and the Soviet Union did despicable things does not put them on a level with a regime that had a racial genocide as its core belief.

If you really believe that isn't so you have gone down massively in my estimation.

As it is you appear to be willing to swallow right wing bullshit wholesale here.
Heard a voice shoutng "Don't jump! Please for God's sake let me move my car"


Image

Bear baiting & dog fights a speciality.

User avatar
Pat O'Banton
Utter Cad
Posts: 49849
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:22
Location: 16 Beasley Street

Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Pat O'Banton » 12 May 2017, 17:11

The Prof wrote:In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce?


An amoral banking system that launders Columbian drug money and Nazi gold stolen from the teeth of dead Jews.
Goat Boy wrote:TVc 15 rocks my world. The chorus makes me want to fuck a horse.

User avatar
Pat O'Banton
Utter Cad
Posts: 49849
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:22
Location: 16 Beasley Street

Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Pat O'Banton » 12 May 2017, 17:19

Toby wrote:The latest biography of Hitler by Vollker Ulrich produces a perspective that I believe we actually discussed at length here not so long ago, that Hitler's wilful destruction of the aristocratic class paved the way for the social democracy of West Germany. It is this sort of history that I like, but one that is obviously controversial and touches the nerves of people who were alive during the Holocaust. That the actions of someone so bad could have unforseen consequences is exactly the type of history that I think we should be understanding, but at the same time it requires a level of nuance that few at a classroom level can get their heads around.


It doesn't seem that hard a concept to me.

When discussing Empire in Britain, I've no doubt that it is a fallacy that it is not taught in schools. We learn nothing of India, of Ireland, nor of Sykes-Picot and what happened in the Middle East after WWI. And we should be learning the reasons for empire, but at the same time I don't think it should be framed entirely in the "empires are bad" perspective. That is too simplistic by far. No-one doubts their impact and things like colonialism and racism should be taught and their message amplified, but at the same time the post-colonial reality is extremely complex. India for example is an incredibly complex place with a mystifyingly elaborate history full of all sorts of things that are sometimes beyond school children.


I think your rather patrician, economically-northern viewpoint rather misses the fundamental point that empires are bad, at least for the countries that are invaded, brutally subjugated (oodles of murders) and exploited - sorry - I meant "colonised."
Goat Boy wrote:TVc 15 rocks my world. The chorus makes me want to fuck a horse.

User avatar
Pat O'Banton
Utter Cad
Posts: 49849
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:22
Location: 16 Beasley Street

Re: Countries With A Horrific Past.....

Postby Pat O'Banton » 12 May 2017, 18:06

The Great Defector wrote:
Pat O'Banton wrote:And then there are those that seem to think they're actually the good guys - the USA being the obvious one. Australia, too. Both countries built on genocides and still harbouring barely-hidden prejudices against their indigenous peoples and their non-white citizens. But hey, isn't life great? Chuck another shrimp on the barbie, dude.


Does it matter if you do this in your own country or a different country? Isn't it pretty much all the same no matter where it happened?


It wasn't their country, though.
Goat Boy wrote:TVc 15 rocks my world. The chorus makes me want to fuck a horse.

User avatar
The Great Defector
Posts: 14559
Joined: 07 Jan 2012, 18:16

Re: Countries With A Horrific Past.....

Postby The Great Defector » 12 May 2017, 18:08

Pat O'Banton wrote:
The Great Defector wrote:
Pat O'Banton wrote:And then there are those that seem to think they're actually the good guys - the USA being the obvious one. Australia, too. Both countries built on genocides and still harbouring barely-hidden prejudices against their indigenous peoples and their non-white citizens. But hey, isn't life great? Chuck another shrimp on the barbie, dude.


Does it matter if you do this in your own country or a different country? Isn't it pretty much all the same no matter where it happened?


It wasn't their country, though.


Yes, I know. I'm asking in general, does it matter where it happened or just the fact it happened.
fueryIre wrote:Deluded by the belief that what is said on chat boards reflects reality or carries any kind of weight in the day-to-day world

User avatar
Pat O'Banton
Utter Cad
Posts: 49849
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:22
Location: 16 Beasley Street

Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Pat O'Banton » 12 May 2017, 18:19

The Great Defector wrote:
Hey man, Griff bought up which comes to mind first when of countries with horrific pasts. He doesn't think Britain would comes to mind say after the Germans. I disagreed. So we're not talking about what good came about just about what atrocities were done.


Marcus, believe me, I do not hold a rose-tinted view of Britain's imperial past - far from it, in fact. And, although Britain has been guilty of dreadful atrocities, it somehow seems to have a pretty decent reputation around the world. Obviously, Ireland views Britain from a very particular and - quite rightly, I think - rather dim viewpoint for the most part, but on a world-wide level, I'm pretty sure the horrific treatment of PoWs in Japanese camps and the horrors of Stalinist Russia (and Tsarist Russia before it, to be fair) spring to mind before the transgressions of the British Empire.

Still, one must always be aware that in a very important way we are all of us standing in the forest viewing shit from a particular perspective. Who, if anyone, can truly see the wood for the trees?
Last edited by Pat O'Banton on 12 May 2017, 18:44, edited 1 time in total.
Goat Boy wrote:TVc 15 rocks my world. The chorus makes me want to fuck a horse.

User avatar
Pat O'Banton
Utter Cad
Posts: 49849
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:22
Location: 16 Beasley Street

Re: Countries With A Horrific Past.....

Postby Pat O'Banton » 12 May 2017, 18:25

The Great Defector wrote:Yes, I know. I'm asking in general, does it matter where it happened or just the fact it happened.


Well, I think that it's telling that we in the West don't really view the colonisations of North America or Australia as genocidal events. In our collective psyche, it's as though there were only a few thousand aboriginal people and, as John Wayne said -in all seriousness - "Well, they weren't using it."

The reality is that millions and millions of people were slaughtered or else displaced and robbed of their land, their way of life, to a great extent their culture. And, all the while it was happening, they were cast as the bad guys.

This is worth a viewing, by the way:



(Pilger has done at least two other vitally important docs on the First Australians, too. Seek them out)
Goat Boy wrote:TVc 15 rocks my world. The chorus makes me want to fuck a horse.

User avatar
Pat O'Banton
Utter Cad
Posts: 49849
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:22
Location: 16 Beasley Street

Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Pat O'Banton » 12 May 2017, 18:27

The Great Defector wrote:
Griff doesn't teach history does he?


I do teach history, but to 9 year olds!

And I do have a degree in Politics and History from Durham University so I'm not completely clueless. :(
Goat Boy wrote:TVc 15 rocks my world. The chorus makes me want to fuck a horse.

User avatar
Harvey K-Tel
Long Player
Posts: 38404
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 23:20
Location: 1220 on your AM dial

Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Harvey K-Tel » 12 May 2017, 18:31

Pat O'Banton wrote:
I do teach history, but to 9 year olds!



Then you're in the right place!
If you've got nothing to do, don't do it here.

User avatar
Pat O'Banton
Utter Cad
Posts: 49849
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:22
Location: 16 Beasley Street

Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Pat O'Banton » 12 May 2017, 18:31

Harvey K-Tel wrote:
Pat O'Banton wrote:
I do teach history, but to 9 year olds!



Then you're in the right place!


I get more sense out of them. ;)
Goat Boy wrote:TVc 15 rocks my world. The chorus makes me want to fuck a horse.

User avatar
Pat O'Banton
Utter Cad
Posts: 49849
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:22
Location: 16 Beasley Street

Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Pat O'Banton » 12 May 2017, 18:42

Count Machuki wrote:Hippy


Harsh. But fair.
Goat Boy wrote:TVc 15 rocks my world. The chorus makes me want to fuck a horse.

User avatar
The Great Defector
Posts: 14559
Joined: 07 Jan 2012, 18:16

Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby The Great Defector » 12 May 2017, 18:49

Pat O'Banton wrote: I'm pretty sure the horrific treatment of PoWs in Japanese camps and the horrors of Stalinist Russia (and Tsarist Russia before it, to be fair) spring to mind before the transgressions of the British Empire.



I still disagree but we're not gonna solve it here.
fueryIre wrote:Deluded by the belief that what is said on chat boards reflects reality or carries any kind of weight in the day-to-day world

User avatar
The Great Defector
Posts: 14559
Joined: 07 Jan 2012, 18:16

Re: Countries With A Horrific Past.....

Postby The Great Defector » 12 May 2017, 18:50

Pat O'Banton wrote:
The Great Defector wrote:Yes, I know. I'm asking in general, does it matter where it happened or just the fact it happened.


Well, I think that it's telling that we in the West don't really view the colonisations of North America or Australia as genocidal events. In our collective psyche, it's as though there were only a few thousand aboriginal people and, as John Wayne said -in all seriousness - "Well, they weren't using it."

The reality is that millions and millions of people were slaughtered or else displaced and robbed of their land, their way of life, to a great extent their culture. And, all the while it was happening, they were cast as the bad guys.

This is worth a viewing, by the way:



(Pilger has done at least two other vitally important docs on the First Australians, too. Seek them out)



Yeah but you made it sound like it's all the Aussies fault, you guys landed over and started it with the Australian indigenous people long before anyone else.
fueryIre wrote:Deluded by the belief that what is said on chat boards reflects reality or carries any kind of weight in the day-to-day world

User avatar
Pat O'Banton
Utter Cad
Posts: 49849
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:22
Location: 16 Beasley Street

Re: Countries With A Horrific Past.....

Postby Pat O'Banton » 12 May 2017, 19:03

The Great Defector wrote:
Yeah but you made it sound like it's all the Aussies fault, you guys landed over and started it with the Australian indigenous people long before anyone else.


That's a pretty decent point.
Goat Boy wrote:TVc 15 rocks my world. The chorus makes me want to fuck a horse.

User avatar
The Great Defector
Posts: 14559
Joined: 07 Jan 2012, 18:16

Re: Countries With A Horrific Past.....

Postby The Great Defector » 12 May 2017, 19:04

Pat O'Banton wrote:
The Great Defector wrote:
Yeah but you made it sound like it's all the Aussies fault, you guys landed over and started it with the Australian indigenous people long before anyone else.


That's a pretty decent point.



It's a beautiful decent point.
fueryIre wrote:Deluded by the belief that what is said on chat boards reflects reality or carries any kind of weight in the day-to-day world

User avatar
Pat O'Banton
Utter Cad
Posts: 49849
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:22
Location: 16 Beasley Street

Re: Countries With A Horrific Past.....

Postby Pat O'Banton » 12 May 2017, 19:10

Nick wrote:
Goat Boy wrote:How many died "unnaturally" in Stalins Russia? We're talking tens of millions, no?


Quite. And we have Corbyn & McDonnell happily appearing in front of the flag of Soviet Communism within the last year - McDonnell within the last ten days.

Let's take a moment to consider the entirely justifiable and normal outrage that would greet a politician standing on a platform in front of Nazi flags. Strangely though, Corbyn's fanclub don't seem to have a problem with him doing the moral equivalent.


The "moral equivalent"? That's a pretty simplistic viewpoint.
Goat Boy wrote:TVc 15 rocks my world. The chorus makes me want to fuck a horse.

User avatar
Toby
Arsehole all Erect
Posts: 21509
Joined: 28 Jul 2003, 23:13
Contact:

Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby Toby » 12 May 2017, 19:22

Pat O'Banton wrote:

I think your rather patrician, economically-northern viewpoint rather misses the fundamental point that empires are bad, at least for the countries that are invaded, brutally subjugated (oodles of murders) and exploited - sorry - I meant "colonised."


Well, I think if you qualified the point more acutely, then I might begin to agree with you.

I haven't stated that empires "were good". So replying that empires were "bad" misses the point of the discussion, which was to note further that precolonial and pre-empirical situations (let's say Britain before the Romans for example) weren't always particularly rosy, whereas the anti-colonial perspective frames it as "natives all lovely until empires come along and fuck everything up", which again I find too simplistic.

I'm not suggesting at all that empires didn't subjugate, brutalize and pilfer the economies of other territories and countries. They most definitely did. But there are, I'm sure, some benefits enjoyed by countries that did have a colonial experience of sorts, even if these did not surface sometimes until later. India's colonial history and its effects are being played out today and will continue to do so for many years, and may account for its growing status as an economic power of some magnitude. To make a judgement call of "an empire was bad" I think, whilst understandable, is just a bit too simplistic in some cases. Belgium in the Congo, yes for sure. But some others, I don't know.

User avatar
Pat O'Banton
Utter Cad
Posts: 49849
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:22
Location: 16 Beasley Street

Re: Countries With A Horrific Past.....

Postby Pat O'Banton » 12 May 2017, 19:22

The Great Defector wrote:It's a beautiful decent point.


I'd agree except that the USA gained independence before the vast majority of the American genocide took place. Australia, too, though it is still part of whatever the British Commonwealth is supposed to be, has been effectively autonomous - particularly concerning internal matters - for some considerable time. None of that is to say there is not a lot of blood on Britain's hands, however.
Goat Boy wrote:TVc 15 rocks my world. The chorus makes me want to fuck a horse.

User avatar
The Prof
Composing a revolutionary symphony
Posts: 44765
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 18:32
Location: A Metropolis of Discontent

Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby The Prof » 12 May 2017, 22:09

Pat O'Banton wrote:
The Prof wrote:In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce?


An amoral banking system that launders Columbian drug money and Nazi gold stolen from the teeth of dead Jews.


I don't remember that bit :?

User avatar
The Savage Young Gash
cultural defective
Posts: 12543
Joined: 29 Sep 2007, 00:32
Location: standing around, exchanging tales and mischief...

Re: Countries With A Horiffic Past.....

Postby The Savage Young Gash » 12 May 2017, 22:17

Pat O'Banton wrote:An amoral banking system that launders Columbian drug money and Nazi gold stolen from the teeth of dead Jews.


Parklife!
Dogshit wrote:I'd like to say I;d never resort to bombs - but I;m not sure I can ever truly walk in those shoes


Dogshit wrote:I do find the inclusion of women unsavoury


Dogshit wrote:Yeah, we're all influenced by life, aren't we - in different ways.



Return to “Nextdoorland”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests