May still desperately clinging on to power

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 04 May 2018, 11:50

Insouciant Western People wrote:
Copehead wrote:I'd also question whether it is labour's job to pander to thick racists in places like Nuneaton. Labour's job is/should be to attain power to run a manifesto that doesn't include the sort of racist pandering that Conservatives obviously feel they have to do, like trying to deport Black British citizens.

I am sure this goes down great with the sort of people that you think labour should be appealing but they are fundamentally your sort of people and you are welcome to their votes.


QED.

"Why don't you fuck off and vote Tory?"

"Oh, you did."


If you have to try and deport Black British citizens to get their attention and support then they are never going to be Labour supporters are they?

I think you fundamentally don't understand that these sort of people are your tribe, they are not disaffected Labour supporters they are racist, Conservative supporters, they have always been there, the Working Class is not a block vote and obviously never has been.

The vote in this country is more polarised than ever before, swing voters are getting rarer and you aren't going to get these people onside by being a little racist because the Tory Party will always out-racist you.

The battle to day is between who can get the most of their, roughly, 40% voter base to the polling stations.

That is why it is all voter suppression laws and negative campaigning on the right these days. It isn't a positive Conservative message, how could it be look at them, it is a negative message about Labour.

They can't run on their own record so they run on scare stories.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Toby » 04 May 2018, 11:52

Copehead wrote:
Most people have very little interest in politics and don't pay attention at all between big elections.


Again, this is where you are wrong, to make such widespread assumptions about people. It's the same, distanced perspective that looks at statistics and applies the notion that "people are thick" - because IQ tests show that half the population are below average intelligence in terms of one marker, they MUST have no idea about politics whatsoever. It's the fundamental issue that bedevils the upper echelons of the leftist spectrum - racists, yokels, thick, uneducated etc etc. And why many leftists crow about "Tories not caring about people" when they make the same sorts of kindergarten-level political mistakes themselves.

People do actually pay attention to local elections, because in the main these are people they are dealing with in their everyday lives, rather than distant politicians in Westminster, who in the main, are talking about national issues. Local issues in many respects are much more important - who's going to ensure that the roads are repaired properly, bin collections, school funding. These are things that people deal with and can grasp.

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Darkness_Fish » 04 May 2018, 12:13

Toby wrote:
People do actually pay attention to local elections, because in the main these are people they are dealing with in their everyday lives, rather than distant politicians in Westminster, who in the main, are talking about national issues.

Why does no-one vote then?
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby PENK » 04 May 2018, 12:16

Insouciant Western People wrote:
PENK wrote:So you genuinely believe that the majority of people have a strong knowledge of the parties' policies and accurate knowledge of their views, records, strengths and weaknesses?


I don't know. But I wouldn't sneer at them and dismiss them all as dupes of the tabloid media when their voting choices don't accord with mine.


No, but then you have a lot of time to discuss politics on BCB whereas I just make the odd flippant comment.

I don't think political education in the UK is very good and many people don't have a great overview of the system or the parties or the individual politicans, policies, or everyday goings-on. That's why the voter turnout is usually so poor.

And I think that Copehead often embodies a big problem the Left has, which is trying to win over voters without appearing condescending. Start hitting people with statistics and facts and they will be suspicious and think you are trying to be smarter than them. It's one reason why people who claim not to be racist still vote for UKIP (or here in Sweden, Sverigedemokraterna).

Even though, let's face it, anyone who votes for Sverigedemokraterna is a total twat.

Unfortunately I do think many people are instead influenced by what they read in the news, because the sad fact is that the harder right control a lot of the media in the UK and that is where most people get their information and their opinion on politics.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Toby » 04 May 2018, 12:48

Darkness_Fish wrote:
Toby wrote:
People do actually pay attention to local elections, because in the main these are people they are dealing with in their everyday lives, rather than distant politicians in Westminster, who in the main, are talking about national issues.

Why does no-one vote then?


Well, it's not no-one. I concede that voter turnout for local elections isn't often great, but that's not to say that the people who do vote aren't invested in making a difference. I think from that perspective, local councillors often are much more able to do something tangible than be spirited away to Westminster. That isn't to say that MPs don't, but it's different.

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Darkness_Fish » 04 May 2018, 13:46

Yeah, but the point was that most people don't pay attention to politics between the general elections, and voter turnout in local elections backs that up. Whether the people who do vote are interested in making a difference wasn't really relevant.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Toby » 04 May 2018, 14:00

Labour's issue is of course that they are not fully formed on what they think Brexit should be. Many of their voters don't want it. They cannot be the party against Brexit because their leader wants it.

The Tories are the party of Brexit, which is why they hoovered up UKIP votes.

This is the fundamental issue of British politics right now. Obviously, if the narrative of Brexit isn't great or a disaster, then it will spell electoral ruin for the Tories. However, if it is judged to be a success in the short-term, then it might be a powerful shot in the arm for them.

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 04 May 2018, 14:03

Toby wrote:
Copehead wrote:
Most people have very little interest in politics and don't pay attention at all between big elections.


Again, this is where you are wrong, to make such widespread assumptions about people. It's the same, distanced perspective that looks at statistics and applies the notion that "people are thick" - because IQ tests show that half the population are below average intelligence in terms of one marker, they MUST have no idea about politics whatsoever. It's the fundamental issue that bedevils the upper echelons of the leftist spectrum - racists, yokels, thick, uneducated etc etc. And why many leftists crow about "Tories not caring about people" when they make the same sorts of kindergarten-level political mistakes themselves.

People do actually pay attention to local elections, because in the main these are people they are dealing with in their everyday lives, rather than distant politicians in Westminster, who in the main, are talking about national issues. Local issues in many respects are much more important - who's going to ensure that the roads are repaired properly, bin collections, school funding. These are things that people deal with and can grasp.


Nope it is where you are wrong.
According to polls less than a third of people are interested in politics
http://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/media/38978/bsa32_politics.pdf
Thirty-two per cent say they have “quite a lot” or “a great deal” of interest in politics

You just bumble on guffing out high handed nonsense don't you Tobes.
Have you ever considered looking into something before you guff out more crap?

Then you build a straw man - I didn't say people had no idea about politics, just that most had no real interest in it.

Fuck me did you really manage to get a degree, I know it was Arts, but still, what are they teaching in Universities these days?

People don't pay attention to local elections, you can see that from the voter turnouts.

Local issues may be important but not important enough to go out and vote.

Still nice to see the BBC spinning Labour not winning Westminster and K&C councils as a disaster for labour on a day which was their best Result since 1971 in Local Elections.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 04 May 2018, 14:06

Toby wrote:Labour's issue is of course that they are not fully formed on what they think Brexit should be. Many of their voters don't want it. They cannot be the party against Brexit because their leader wants it.

The Tories are the party of Brexit, which is why they hoovered up UKIP votes.

This is the fundamental issue of British politics right now. Obviously, if the narrative of Brexit isn't great or a disaster, then it will spell electoral ruin for the Tories. However, if it is judged to be a success in the short-term, then it might be a powerful shot in the arm for them.


I don't think the Labour party has any need to say what Brexit should be. As Napolean said - don't interrupt your enemy while they are making a mistake.

Let the Tories fuck them selves up with Brexit and then pick up the pieces.

The idea that Corbyn wants Brexit when he has said many times he doesn't he voted against it and he'd vote against it again is just bizarre, just more of the lying narrative of the right, don't listen to what people say just make up shit about them.

I think the idea that Brexit can be any sort of success is clutching at straws.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby ORORORO » 04 May 2018, 14:15

Copehead wrote:Still nice to see the BBC spinning Labour not winning Westminster and K&C councils as a disaster for labour on a day which was their best Result since 1971 in Local Elections.


I saw Owen Jones' tweet too!
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby gash on ignore » 04 May 2018, 14:18

What about the people suffering from Brexit’s fall-out now?

Fuck them too I suppose, just let the politicians play their games.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Minnie the Minx » 04 May 2018, 14:18

Copehead wrote:
Toby wrote:Labour's issue is of course that they are not fully formed on what they think Brexit should be. Many of their voters don't want it. They cannot be the party against Brexit because their leader wants it.

The Tories are the party of Brexit, which is why they hoovered up UKIP votes.

This is the fundamental issue of British politics right now. Obviously, if the narrative of Brexit isn't great or a disaster, then it will spell electoral ruin for the Tories. However, if it is judged to be a success in the short-term, then it might be a powerful shot in the arm for them.


As Napolean said - don't interrupt your enemy while they are making a mistake.



What about a spelling mistake?
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 04 May 2018, 14:18

The Ivy League Spiritual Gonad Orchestra wrote:
Copehead wrote:Still nice to see the BBC spinning Labour not winning Westminster and K&C councils as a disaster for labour on a day which was their best Result since 1971 in Local Elections.


I saw Owen Jones' tweet too!


Based on the fact that they now have the highest number of councillors since then.
More councillors than every other party combined.
When you are that far ahead in local politics making huge gains is really pretty difficult I guess.

But as I said nice to see the establishment media saying not winning Westminster council is a disaster for Corbyn, that's got to make you laugh.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 04 May 2018, 14:21

gash on ignore wrote:What about the people suffering from Brexit’s fall-out now?

Fuck them too I suppose, just let the politicians play their games.


I suggest you turn your outrage on the Tory/DUP alliance who have a majority in Parliament

The labour Party in the Lords are doing their bit with defeat after defeat for the government but political reality means the labour Party can do nothing about the Tories fucking up Brexit other than pointing out that they are, which they do.

What would you like Corby to do: make promises that he cannot keep because he isn't in power, set himself on fire in parliament square?
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Geezee » 04 May 2018, 16:26

Copehead wrote:
Geezee wrote:
Insouciant Western People wrote:
I doubt many voters are particularly enthusiastic about the current administration.

The thing is though, they then look at the Labour front bench, and think that it's even worse. So a lot of them choose what they see as the least worst option.


I don't think that's quite accurate - I think that fundamentally people who oppose Corbyn do so out of dislike of his policies, not the competency of his front bench. Although many people of course conflate the two, that a socialist by definition is incompetent. That's my experience at least.


Have you slept through the last few years?

Christ on a bike, you think Socialists are incompetent?


No - read what I said! - I said that this is what my experience of people who don't want to vote Corbyn is. They generally don't point to competency as an issue, they just fundamentally dislike him and his policies. Although, as I said, sometimes they conflate the two, ie. that anyone who is a socialist is also by definition incompetent and can't run an economy. I didn't say that I was one of those - for me it's quite the opposite. The fact that the May government demonstrably incompetent is (unfortunately, in my opinion) not enough to send voters away from that party.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Geezee » 04 May 2018, 16:36

Insouciant Western People wrote:
Geezee wrote: Is there a single even vaguely competent person in any office of government right now?


Rory Stewart has impressed me as very competent. I hope he makes it into one of the main office of state roles within the next few years, he has the potential to make an excellent Home or Foreign Secretary.


Quite a toff but he's an interesting character, I'll give him that.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Insouciant Western People » 04 May 2018, 22:38

Copehead wrote:The idea that Corbyn wants Brexit when he has said many times he doesn't he voted against it and he'd vote against it again is just bizarre, just more of the lying narrative of the right, don't listen to what people say just make up shit about them.


Corbyn. The man who voted to leave the EU in 1975. Who voted against the Maastricht Treaty. Who voted against the Lisbon Treaty. Whose 'campaigning' in favour of Remain was about as convincing as the Pope would be shilling for Durex. Whose guru, Tony Benn, and best friend John McDonnell were/are both staunch opponents of the EU. Who said, the morning after the Brexit vote, that "Article 50 has to be invoked now".

Corbyn. The man who has never changed his mind on anything. Because of, you know, 'principles' (and that he is spectacularly dim and unimaginative, and hopelessly in thrall to outdated dogma).

But by all means, tell me more about how he's in favour of Britain remaining in the EU, please do.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 04 May 2018, 22:38

Geezee wrote:
Copehead wrote:
Geezee wrote:
I don't think that's quite accurate - I think that fundamentally people who oppose Corbyn do so out of dislike of his policies, not the competency of his front bench. Although many people of course conflate the two, that a socialist by definition is incompetent. That's my experience at least.


Have you slept through the last few years?

Christ on a bike, you think Socialists are incompetent?


No - read what I said! - I said that this is what my experience of people who don't want to vote Corbyn is. They generally don't point to competency as an issue, they just fundamentally dislike him and his policies. Although, as I said, sometimes they conflate the two, ie. that anyone who is a socialist is also by definition incompetent and can't run an economy. I didn't say that I was one of those - for me it's quite the opposite. The fact that the May government demonstrably incompetent is (unfortunately, in my opinion) not enough to send voters away from that party.


Sorry misread you, I see what you mean.
I apologise
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 04 May 2018, 22:42

Insouciant Western People wrote:
Copehead wrote:The idea that Corbyn wants Brexit when he has said many times he doesn't he voted against it and he'd vote against it again is just bizarre, just more of the lying narrative of the right, don't listen to what people say just make up shit about them.


Corbyn. The man who voted to leave the EU in 1975. Who voted against the Maastricht Treaty. Who voted against the Lisbon Treaty. Whose 'campaigning' in favour of Remain was about as convincing as the Pope would be shilling for Durex. Whose guru, Tony Benn, and best friend John McDonnell were/are both staunch opponents of the EU. Who said, the morning after the Brexit vote, that "Article 50 has to be invoked now".

Corbyn. The man who has never changed his mind on anything. Because of, you know, 'principles' (and that he is spectacularly dim and unimaginative, and hopelessly in thrall to outdated dogma).

But by all means, tell me more about how he's in favour of Britain remaining in the EU, please do.


Yes also a man who campaigned to stay in the EU voted to stay in the EU and said he'd vote to stay in the EU if given another vote.

People are able to change their minds you know.

He said he was 7/10 on the EU, which is something I think a lot of us would agree with.

But why listen to what the man says over and over again when you can make up shit about what you know he believes deep down inside.

If you want to know what Corbyn thinks about the EU and Brexit just read what he fucking writes for craps sake, it isn't difficult.

I don't know perhaps it is if you don't want to
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby ORORORO » 05 May 2018, 08:40

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