May still desperately clinging on to power

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Insouciant Western People » 03 Apr 2018, 17:59

Weston Drury, Jnr. wrote:It's 'I'll damned well do as I please', isn't it?


It's certainly an odd approach to take.

You wonder if it's occurred to him that if you want to stop people worrying about your long history of associating with left wing extremists who hate Israel and want to destroy it, perhaps it isn't a great idea to go to a party with a bunch of left wing extremists who hate Israel and want to destroy it.
Jeff K wrote:Nick's still the man! No one has been as consistent as he has been over such a long period of time.

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Toby » 03 Apr 2018, 18:05

Diamond Dog wrote:So one action 50 years ago demonstrates an ongoing and lifelong character trait? Anything you did even 20 years ago that you now think hasn't become a lifelong measure of your temperament?


35 years of saying no in Politics may on the one hand demonstrate laudable moral principles. It may also suggest that at the upper echelons of power, that at 67 they may be unable to compromise.

It is relatively easy to maintain such a position in Parliament if you demonstrate no interest in being a cabinet member. You can say no because if you have no interest in advancement, the whips have no power over what you say.

I have always found it disconcerting that someone could become the leader of a party without having any experience of the more important parts. This is why JRM would struggle with leadership of the Tory party.

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Insouciant Western People » 03 Apr 2018, 18:06

Dave Rich, who quite literally wrote the book on Corbyn and left wing anti-Semitism, has posted these comments regarding the Jewdas furore on Facebook:

Yes, Jewdas are part of the Jewish community, even if they define themselves in opposition to the rest of that community.

No, Jewdas are not antisemitic, even if they deny, dismiss and make excuses for actual antisemitism.

Yes, Jeremy Corbyn is entitled to meet any Jews he chooses, and other Jews are entitled to draw whatever conclusions they want from his choice.

No, this was not the beginning of a process of meaningful engagement with the Jewish community, it was engagement with the small part where Corbyn already feels fully engaged.

Yes, it feels completely weird for national media to be discussing Jewdas and seders and internal Jewish politics like any other news story.

No, I have no idea where this will end.



In normal times, it would be unremarkable for Corbyn to attend this event. But these are not normal times, and right now this was an astonishing thing to do.

Last week Corbyn asked the mainstream Jewish communal leadership for a meeting. They asked him to first say clearly, to his own supporters, that complaints about antisemitism in the Labour Party are not a smear. He hasn't replied and no meeting has yet been arranged. Instead, he meets a group who say that it is, indeed, all a smear.

Maybe he used it as an opportunity to tell Jewdas they are wrong, that there is a real problem of antisemitism in his party and that people are entitled to complain about it; in which case, let him say so. But I doubt it. Rather, this looks very much like his answer to the Board of Deputies and JLC. It looks like Corbyn, after everything, still isn't taking the issue of antisemitism in his party seriously enough.

Either this was a misstep or it was calculated. Both options are terrible. And it is funny, isn't it, that the missteps, lack of knowledge, poor judgement, always seems to lean in the same direction. After a while you have to conclude it's a pattern of behaviour and not a set of random mistakes.
Jeff K wrote:Nick's still the man! No one has been as consistent as he has been over such a long period of time.

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 03 Apr 2018, 18:12

Insouciant Western People wrote:
Copehead wrote:The evidence says that the Conservative party has a far greater problem with anti-semites than the labour party, as you'd expect.


Actually, the evidence doesn't say that. The survey refers to people who voted for political parties in the 2015 and 2017 elections. Voters, not party members.

You haven't presented any evidence to show that the Tories have a higher percentage of members exhibiting anti-Semitic tendencies. I'm not saying they necessarily don't. I'm just saying you haven't got any data to suggest or confirm it.

As I mentioned earlier, most Conservative MPs are members of the CFI. That doesn't suggest a widespread prevalence of anti-Semitism among the Parliamentary Conservative Party at least.


So having anti-semites voting for you isn't a problem now.

This is a bit of a slippery slope Nick, if you start happily letting anti-semites vote for you, next you will dog whistling their anti-semitism by talking about "citizens of nowhere" and pandering to their racism by calling black children "piccaninnies".

Where will it end?
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby The Modernist » 03 Apr 2018, 18:14

And what exactly is wrong with Jewdas Nick?

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 03 Apr 2018, 18:19

Insouciant Western People wrote:
Copehead wrote:that you or Toby who sees self hating Jews everywhere, I may be getting my right wing middle aged fogies mixed up.


It was Toby that you said was being anti-Semitic earlier.

You haven't done that to me. Yet.


Neither you nor Toby is anti-semitic, and neither are Jeremy Corbyn or the Labour Party as a body of people.

I think we can all agree on that.

That being the case, why has it been front page news for weeks on end?

A program to call out anti-semitism in the British body politic I can get right behind, it is a cancer as are all manifestations of racism.

This weaponising of anti-semitism to attack a man and a party neither of whom are anti-semitic to any degree disgusts me on two levels, firstly it cheapens the real evil of anti-semitism, let's keep it for when we need to call it out for real; secondly it is gutter politics and it is demeaning the whole political system in our country.

Personally I don't want to go down the road they have in the US where someone with different political views to you isn't just wrong they are evil or dangerous. There are very few political views that are evil and dangerous and they are not those of Jeremy Corbyn or the Labour Movement.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Insouciant Western People » 03 Apr 2018, 18:20

The Modernist wrote:And what exactly is wrong with Jewdas Nick?


They're left wing extremists who hate Israel and want it destroyed.
Jeff K wrote:Nick's still the man! No one has been as consistent as he has been over such a long period of time.

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Diamond Dog » 03 Apr 2018, 18:23

Insouciant Western People wrote:Dave Rich, who quite literally wrote the book on Corbyn and left wing anti-Semitism, has posted these comments regarding the Jewdas furore on Facebook:


In normal times, it would be unremarkable for Corbyn to attend this event. But these are not normal times, and right now this was an astonishing thing to do.

Last week Corbyn asked the mainstream Jewish communal leadership for a meeting. They asked him to first say clearly, to his own supporters, that complaints about antisemitism in the Labour Party are not a smear. He hasn't replied and no meeting has yet been arranged. Instead, he meets a group who say that it is, indeed, all a smear.

Maybe he used it as an opportunity to tell Jewdas they are wrong, that there is a real problem of antisemitism in his party and that people are entitled to complain about it; in which case, let him say so. But I doubt it. Rather, this looks very much like his answer to the Board of Deputies and JLC. It looks like Corbyn, after everything, still isn't taking the issue of antisemitism in his party seriously enough.

Either this was a misstep or it was calculated. Both options are terrible. And it is funny, isn't it, that the missteps, lack of knowledge, poor judgement, always seems to lean in the same direction. After a while you have to conclude it's a pattern of behaviour and not a set of random mistakes.



There's some remarkable suppositions going on there, even for a person who clearly has a stated interest in the subject (and, hey, will be watching the sales of his two year old book going through the roof). None of it (the conclusions) based on fact, most of it based on interpretation and supposition - but why let a few uninteresting facts like that get in the way of a piece of shameless self promotion?
In other words an extended look into *******’s head, and it seems to have some pretty good things in it (who among us is totally free of mental garbage?) It’s nice to see that he is confident enough so he can play some blues again,I’d like to hear more.

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Samoan » 03 Apr 2018, 18:23

The Modernist wrote:
Samoan wrote:
Contrast it with Corbyn who appears to have pissed his private and later grammar school education up the wall by gaining just 2 E grade A levels which is why he only merited polytechnic admission. (3 A levels were then required for university admission.)

I find it lamentable.


I find it lamentable that you would judge someone on what they did when they were 18.

Apart from this comment, I don't respond to partial, cherry-picked quotes of my posts.

I afforded Cope the courtesy of indicating I'd partially quoted him.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 03 Apr 2018, 18:24

The Modernist wrote:And what exactly is wrong with Jewdas Nick?


Wrong sort of Jews innit.

When Jews go wrong and start espousing non-Jewish dogma like Marxism.

As Toby was saying earlier Marx was anti-semitic and anti-semitism lies at the heart of all left wing politics because Jews are rich men and socialists hate rich men.

At least I think that was what he was getting at, it is difficult to tell what you are driving at wwhen you are blowing your mind with Spectator and Daily Mail editorials.

Demented are go!
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Samoan » 03 Apr 2018, 18:27

Diamond Dog wrote:
The Modernist wrote:
Samoan wrote:
Contrast it with Corbyn who appears to have pissed his private and later grammar school education up the wall by gaining just 2 E grade A levels which is why he only merited polytechnic admission. (3 A levels were then required for university admission.)

I find it lamentable.


I find it lamentable that you would judge someone on what they did when they were 18.



I find just about everything Samoan has to say about Corbyn lamentable.

Samoan wrote:You've put your spin on it. I disagree. Mine is it demonstrates Corbyn's persistently recalcitrant, peevish, immature temperament.


So one action 50 years ago demonstrates an ongoing and lifelong character trait? Anything you did even 20 years ago that you now think hasn't become a lifelong measure of your temperament?

Yes, to both queries, people don't change.

Apart from the reply I gave above, I prefer not to respond to partial, cherry-picked quotes of my posts.

I afforded Cope the courtesy of indicating I'd partially quoted him and I didn't personally criticize him, as you have done me.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 03 Apr 2018, 18:30

Insouciant Western People wrote:
The Modernist wrote:And what exactly is wrong with Jewdas Nick?


They're left wing extremists who hate Israel and want it destroyed.


Oh dear. Just when I said you weren't anti-semitic.

They are merely left wing anti-zionist collective who run a satirical website.

There are plenty of right wing religious anti-zionists as well you know Nick, it doesn't mean anyone wants to see Israel destroyed, unless you think the current far right, kleptocratic Apartheid state is the only Israel than can exist

http://www.jewdas.org/?page_id=2
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 03 Apr 2018, 18:36

Insouciant Western People wrote:
Copehead wrote:Hitler did support Zionism, the building of a Jewish state in the Middle east, for his own reasons.

Obviously he still detested Jews but he definitely supported Zionism in the 30s as a way of removing Jews from Europe.

What word would you use other than "support"? He actively looked into giving material and monetary support to Jewish "terrorists" in their battle with Palestinians and the British colonialists and he supported the removal of Jews from Europe to Palestine.

That looks like supporting Zionism to me.


Zionism was and is a movement for the liberation and self-determination of the Jewish people, intended to save them from the millenia of persecution that they've suffered.


No it isn't.
It is nationalist political ideology that demands a monoethnic Jewish state in Palestine.

A gigantically murderous anti-Semite having an aim (the removal of the Jews from Europe) that happened to tangentially coincide with the aim of Zionism to establish a Jewish state in their ancient homeland is not the same as him 'supporting' Zionism.


I think you'll find that it is an exact dictionary definition of supporting; he supported Zionism militarily, monetarily and as a desirable outcome.
Doesn't change the fact that he was a genocidal anti-semite, just that his desires and the desires of Zionists coincided for a brief period in the mid 30s.

Hitler is probably the most terrible, and certainly the most genocidally murderous enemy the Jews have ever faced.


I think the Catholic Church may be disappointed with their relegation to second there, they may not have done as much evil as quickly as Hitler but they were at it far longer.

Saying that Hitler supported Zionism is like telling an Irishman that Oliver Cromwell supported Irish republicanism. As the very least it is an awful and offensive use of words.


No it isn't, Hitler did support Zionism briefly in the 30s, I doubt Cromwell could even conceive of Irish Republicanism.

That's why so many people were upset by what he said - that and the fact that Livingstone has form for baiting Jews, so there was a strong suspicion that he said it in the full knowledge of what he was doing in order to wind them up.


I can't see the problem with making people a bit upset with some home truths about the birth of Zionism and the fact that it is an apartheid, nationalist ideology.

Those are simple facts that many Jews recognise.

I don't think winding up Zionists is anti-semitic, it is anti-zionist and anti-nationalist but as zionist=/=Jew then it isn't anti-semitic.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 03 Apr 2018, 18:43

Samoan wrote:
Copehead wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:
You do realise that was sarcasm, don't you?

From the Head of The Anti-Corbyn Brigade, there is no other way to be.


Yes :)
I was just adding my 2p worth to your sarcastic slap down on Samoan.

Of all the things to attack him for walking out on a degree course that didn't suit him seems the weirdest.
..

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/apr/01/vast-majority-of-teachers-considered-quitting-in-past-year-poll
80% of teachers considered quitting last year
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/apr/02/teachers-warn-of-growing-poverty-crisis-in-british-schools
..

You've put your spin on it. I disagree. Mine is it demonstrates Corbyn's persistently recalcitrant, peevish, immature temperament.

You've referenced the parlous state of our education system above.

Contrast it with Corbyn who appears to have pissed his private and later grammar school education up the wall by gaining just 2 E grade A levels which is why he only merited polytechnic admission. (3 A levels were then required for university admission.)

I find it lamentable.

It speaks to both the unsuitability of his temperament for high office and his intellectual paucity.


You seem a bit obsessed by his lack of academic achievement 50 years ago rather than his political manifesto today.
I can't say I share this obsession with playing the man 50 years ago rather than the ball.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 03 Apr 2018, 18:45

The Modernist wrote:This whole anti-antisemitism controversy is a nonsense. Are we to believe a party goes from being totally pro semitic to anti-semetic merely because of a change of leader? Clearly there is an agenda here. I see there were 9 Palestinian protesters killed the other day, let's see a bit more protest over that perhaps.


And over 700 shot as the Israelis fired live weapons into a large mass of unarmed protestors.

But let's get some perspective here, there may be a few anti-semitic scumbags hiding out in the nether regions of the Labour Party let's deal with that first.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Diamond Dog » 03 Apr 2018, 18:46

Samoan wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:
The Modernist wrote:
I find it lamentable that you would judge someone on what they did when they were 18.



I find just about everything Samoan has to say about Corbyn lamentable.

Samoan wrote:You've put your spin on it. I disagree. Mine is it demonstrates Corbyn's persistently recalcitrant, peevish, immature temperament.


So one action 50 years ago demonstrates an ongoing and lifelong character trait? Anything you did even 20 years ago that you now think hasn't become a lifelong measure of your temperament?

Yes, to both queries, people don't change.

Apart from the reply I gave above, I prefer not to respond to partial, cherry-picked quotes of my posts.

I afforded Cope the courtesy of indicating I'd partially quoted him and I didn't personally criticize him, as you have done me.


No, I said everything you say about Corbyn is lamentable, not you are lamentable.

You believe every action defines the character trait of an individual, no matter how long ago or in which circumstances or context that action was made.I don't - and I'd politely suggest there are far more people who agree with my point of view than yours. No empirical evidence,just a hunch. Because I'm sure 99% of people on the planet have done something in their lives that they regret, and hope others will find the way to accept that it doesn't define them either immediately or in 50 years time.
In other words an extended look into *******’s head, and it seems to have some pretty good things in it (who among us is totally free of mental garbage?) It’s nice to see that he is confident enough so he can play some blues again,I’d like to hear more.

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Pansy Puff » 03 Apr 2018, 19:19

Theodor Herzl? State of Israel. If you will it, Dude, it is no dream!
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby echolalia » 03 Apr 2018, 19:26

Copehead wrote:
Insouciant Western People wrote:
The Modernist wrote:And what exactly is wrong with Jewdas Nick?


They're left wing extremists who hate Israel and want it destroyed.


Oh dear. Just when I said you weren't anti-semitic.

They are merely left wing anti-zionist collective who run a satirical website.

There are plenty of right wing religious anti-zionists as well you know Nick, it doesn't mean anyone wants to see Israel destroyed, unless you think the current far right, kleptocratic Apartheid state is the only Israel than can exist

http://www.jewdas.org/?page_id=2


The wiki page on Jewdas says:

In May 2015, the group brought over thirty people on its inaugural Birthwrong trip to Andalusia, Spain. Advertised as "a trip for anyone who's sick of Israel's stranglehold on Jewish culture and wants to get away on a raucous holiday", the itinerary included: "See Maimonides! Get pissed! Do some Jewish tourism! Spend Shabbat with Andalusian Jews! Shvitz in a hammam! Visit a communist village! Get pissed!"

It all sounds a bit fun-loving for a "hate" group. Although the "Israel's stranglehold on Jewish culture" comment makes a serious and valid point, surely.

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 03 Apr 2018, 20:02

echolalia wrote:[

The wiki page on Jewdas says:

In May 2015, the group brought over thirty people on its inaugural Birthwrong trip to Andalusia, Spain. Advertised as "a trip for anyone who's sick of Israel's stranglehold on Jewish culture and wants to get away on a raucous holiday", the itinerary included: "See Maimonides! Get pissed! Do some Jewish tourism! Spend Shabbat with Andalusian Jews! Shvitz in a hammam! Visit a communist village! Get pissed!"

It all sounds a bit fun-loving for a "hate" group. Although the "Israel's stranglehold on Jewish culture" comment makes a serious and valid point, surely.


Once you weaponise anti-semitism as just another political point scoring mechanism this is the sort of nuanced position that is collateral damage, and they are Jews for goodness sake.

The wrong sort of Jews.

How Jeremy Corbyn celebrating passover with Jews is more evidence of anti-semitism :roll:

Here are what Jewdas are about in their own words, rather than Nick's second hand histrionics.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/03/jeremy-corbyn-passover-jewdas-good-news

This is particularly telling

We have grown used to being smeared as self-hating Jews. But labelling us a source of “virulent antisemitism” as the Board of Deputies leader, Jonathan Arkush, did today is seriously scraping the barrel.


I think he should be hanging his head in shame for putting his politics before any sense of decency.

Perhaps Nick would like to apologise to them as well.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Deebank » 04 Apr 2018, 10:59

It's good to see a backlash starting.

David Baddiel (hardly a fan of JC) called the story 'Bollocks' and high profile jews like Michael Rosen and David Schneider have also spoken out against it. Of course the original Guido Fawkes 'scoop' didn't actually mention that Corbyn was attending a jewish Seder with jews from a jewish organisation!

What this demonstrates is that - and you would think this would be blindingly obvious - there is a wide range of opinion among British jews and that anti-zionism is not some tiny fringe stance.

From the start when my old comrade's name was mentioned as being one of these 'anti-semites' that Labour had to deal with I've suspected this story was largely bullshit. Everything I've seen since has only supported that view,
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