May still desperately clinging on to power

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 03 Apr 2018, 14:36

Insouciant Western People wrote:
Copehead wrote:
yomptepi wrote: Livingstone was suspended two years ago.


Ah yes the man who is an anti-semite because he pointed out that there were meeting between Zionists and Nazis in the 30s and that Hitler supported Zionism as a solution to the "Jewish Problem".


We all know there was a lot more to it than that.

Livingstone's saying that Hitler was "supporting Zionism... before he went mad" is a gross and offensive misrepresentation of the truth, and the fact that he chose those words strongly suggests that he's either deeply ignorant of the historical facts, or that he was deliberately trying to bait Jews.


No it isn't Hitler did support Zionism, the building of a Jewish state in the Middle east, for his own reasons.
Obviously he still detested Jews but he definitely supported Zionism in the 30s as a way of removing Jews from Europe.

What word would you use other than "support"? He actively looked into giving material and monetary support to Jewish "terrorists" in their battle with Palestinians and the British colonialists and he supported the removal of Jews from Europe to Palestine.

That looks like supporting Zionism to me.

Of course he also courted the Mufti of Jerusalem at the same time who was an even bigger Jew hater than Hitler and in the final analysis he started the war and events took over what ever he may have had in mind.

The trouble here is people looking to be offended for party political reasons. there is nothing offensive about what Livingstone said, it is a matter of historical record, I can see nothing offensive in the way he said it.

Things like this cheapen real anti-semitism.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 03 Apr 2018, 14:37

K wrote:
Insouciant Western People wrote:Because she was speaking with specific reference to Brexit, the most likely derivation for the phrase is from the work of David Goodhart, who has talked about 'somewheres' and 'anywheres' with reference to the Brexit vote. If you read the speech in full and look at it in context, there is nothing in there to suggest that she was referring to Jews, and indeed, there is no logical explanation to suggest that that was what she was doing.

Wasn't Goodhart's article that mentioned 'somewheres' published in 2017?

A response to May's speech was seen in a letter to the Guardian, by Jeremy Adler of King's College London:

The greatest of all Enlightenment thinkers, Immanuel Kant, proposed the ideal of world citizenship as a means to achieve perpetual peace. In the 20th century, his views underwrote the founding of the United Nations, an organisation which invokes world citizenship as a means to attain world peace. The very different, pejorative sense of cosmopolitanism adopted by Ms May, however, originates in German antisemitic discourse. It emerged in the 19th century: the “rootless Jew” was seen as a “cosmopolitan” citizen from “nowhere”. This view is echoed in that most vile of all antisemitic texts, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (1903). Subsequently, the prejudice was adopted by the Nazis, and used to justify the slaughter of the Jewish people as “non-citizens” and “non-persons” in the Holocaust. Is that where our xenophobic PM wants to lead us, this time by scapegoating “foreigners”? I don’t appear to be the only one who senses echoes of 1933 in our brave new Britain.


Nick probably thinks Adler is another Self hating Jew. There are so many of them aren't there?!

It is almost like we aren't hearing a proper debate here but the echo chamber of the right.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 03 Apr 2018, 14:40

Diamond Dog wrote:
Samoan wrote:
Weston Drury, Jnr. wrote:It's 'I'll damned well do as I please', isn't it?

Precisely.
It's what he's done all his life: for example, dropping out of polytechnic because he didn't like the syllabus.
Corbyn began a course in Trade Union Studies at North London Polytechnic but left after a year without a degree after a series of arguments with his tutors over the curriculum. *

He's a self-propelled human wrecking ball and a petulant man-child.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Corbyn


Yes, he is indeed the only politician to ever drop out of further education and (consequently) rightly deserves the man-child insult.


Being brave enough to argue about your curriculum and drop out of a course that doesn't teach what you want to learn seems quite grown up to me.
I certainly wouldn't have been brave enough to say boo to a goose when I was that age.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 03 Apr 2018, 14:44

yomptepi wrote:I agree with most of that. Which makes you wonder why Corbyn doesn't have better control over his party, and why after two years he has still not put this issue to bed. He does carry some responsibility. Even you have to concede that.


He has more control of the party than any Labour leader in years. What he doesn't control is a noisy rump of Blairite MPs who would seemingly do anything to unseat him bar trying to put a stronger message to the Labour party membership and challenge him democratically again.

He can't put an issue to bed that the mainstream media doesn't want to put to bed can he?

He is powerless in driving what goes on the front page of the Daily Mail, the Labour Party went down that route before and it was disastrous.

All he can do is trust in bypassing the media and going straight to the people; which is what Momentum is all about and why the Tory press demonise it.

And I know you agree with what I say because you say it yourself in your own way too Mike.

Pete just can't stand the childlike glee you take in what is happening, but you know this isn't healthy politics as well as I do.

The British liberal Elite and no willing to let someone like Corbyn become PM, someone whose program isn't any more left wing than Angela Merkel's in large part, and they are willing to do anything to stop it - even the weaponising and cheapening of anti-semitism.

That is a dangerous thing to do.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Diamond Dog » 03 Apr 2018, 14:52

Copehead wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:
Samoan wrote:Precisely.
It's what he's done all his life: for example, dropping out of polytechnic because he didn't like the syllabus.

He's a self-propelled human wrecking ball and a petulant man-child.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Corbyn


Yes, he is indeed the only politician to ever drop out of further education and (consequently) rightly deserves the man-child insult.


Being brave enough to argue about your curriculum and drop out of a course that doesn't teach what you want to learn seems quite grown up to me.
I certainly wouldn't have been brave enough to say boo to a goose when I was that age.


You do realise that was sarcasm, don't you?

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 03 Apr 2018, 15:07

Diamond Dog wrote:
Copehead wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:
Yes, he is indeed the only politician to ever drop out of further education and (consequently) rightly deserves the man-child insult.


Being brave enough to argue about your curriculum and drop out of a course that doesn't teach what you want to learn seems quite grown up to me.
I certainly wouldn't have been brave enough to say boo to a goose when I was that age.


You do realise that was sarcasm, don't you?

From the Head of The Anti-Corbyn Brigade, there is no other way to be.


Yes :)
I was just adding my 2p worth to your sarcastic slap down on Samoan.

Of all the things to attack him for walking out on a degree course that didn't suit him seems the weirdest.

But things are getting very weird in politics.

2 weeks on the anti-semitism of the least anti-semitic major political party in the UK whilst the stories about people dying in hospital corridors and ambulances and the near collapse of our schooling system get relegated to page 15 of the few papers that cover these things at all.

Page 15:
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/apr/01/vast-majority-of-teachers-considered-quitting-in-past-year-poll
80% of teachers considered quitting last year
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/apr/02/teachers-warn-of-growing-poverty-crisis-in-british-schools

Extreme child poverty is worsening across the UK, with schools increasingly forced to fill in the gaps being left by councils and social services budget cuts, school leaders have said.

Headteachers from schools in deprived areas of England, Wales and Northern Ireland say they are having to provide basic services such as washing school uniforms for pupils from poor households, and are even paying for budget advice and counselling services for parents.

Teachers and school leaders also said they were regularly providing sanitary products such as tampons for pupils, buying shoes and coats in winter, and in some cases giving emergency loans in cash to families.


Obviously none of this will be carried by most of the press or the BBC.

Meanwhile headline in the Guardian today - Anti-semite Corbyn attacked for attending a meeting with the wrong sort of Jewish person.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/03/jeremy-corbyn-called-irresponsible-after-attending-radical-jewish-event

Jeremy Corbyn has said he “learned at a lot” at a Passover event hosted by a leftwing Jewish group highly critical of mainstream Jewish bodies, after he was strongly criticised by MPs for attending.

The Labour leader took part in the seder, the traditional meal of the Jewish festival, organised by Jewdas, which last week accused the Jewish Board of Deputies, Jewish Leadership Council and Jewish Labour Movement of “playing a dangerous game with people’s lives”.


Another load of self haters for Nick to get worked up about it seems.

Who knew that Jews were only allowed to have one political view point. I should have paid more attention when that was discussed.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Insouciant Western People » 03 Apr 2018, 16:00

Copehead wrote:
Insouciant Western People wrote:
Copehead wrote:I have posted a link to it earlier in the thread it was when she was Home Sec and it was to conference and Vince Cable likened it to something out of Mein Kampf.


It wasn't when she was the Home Secretary, nor was it when Ed Miliband was leader. The reference to 'citizens of nowhere' was used in her conference speech in 2016, when she already leader of the Conservatives. At that point, Ed Miliband had not been leader of Labour for a year and a half. So your attempt to cast a slur at her seems to be without any justification.


Well apart from the fact that it happened, she said it and Vince cable likened it to something out of Mein Kampf you mean.

That is far closer to real anti-semitism than anything Corbyn has ever done.


I do love watching you backtrack like mad when, as per usual, you've got your facts wrong :lol:

You said that May used an anti-Semitic trope in a speech made when Ed Miliband was the Labour leader. That isn't true.

We've since established that the speech was made 18 months after Ed Miliband stopped being the Labour leader, and anyway Theresa May would have had no reason to mean to use an anti-Semitic trope even when Ed was leader, let alone after he'd stopped being leader.

Theresa May has close links to the Conservative Friends of Israel. 80% of Tory MPs are members of the CFI, including some of her key cabinet ministers. She has no history of associating with anti-Semites. Does she sound like a woman who'd want to use an anti-Semitic slur?

So the context of your accusation (implying that May wanted to have a pop at Miliband for being a Jew, and by extension make insinuations about the whole labour Party) is wrong in that respect.

We've also established that given the context, there is a far more innocuous explanation for what was, at worst, an unfortunate choice of words - namely that she was echoing David Goodhart's thinking

Jeremy Adler and Vince Cable are welcome to their opinions. I'm simply saying that I can't see any real evidence for why May's words would be construed as being aimed at Jews, the aforesaid poor choice of words aside.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby yomptepi » 03 Apr 2018, 16:01

Copehead wrote:
Of all the things to attack him for walking out on a degree course that didn't suit him seems the weirdest.

.


North London Poly? Would have been an HNC or an HND at best. Certainly not a degree. Whatever next?
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Insouciant Western People » 03 Apr 2018, 16:03

Copehead wrote:Nick probably thinks Adler is another Self hating Jew. There are so many of them aren't there?!


What on earth are you babbling about now? I've never said anything about so-called 'self-hating Jews'.

A word of advice. Try engaging your brain before you splooge its contents wildly onto the internet.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 03 Apr 2018, 16:13

Insouciant Western People wrote:
Copehead wrote:
Insouciant Western People wrote:
It wasn't when she was the Home Secretary, nor was it when Ed Miliband was leader. The reference to 'citizens of nowhere' was used in her conference speech in 2016, when she already leader of the Conservatives. At that point, Ed Miliband had not been leader of Labour for a year and a half. So your attempt to cast a slur at her seems to be without any justification.


Well apart from the fact that it happened, she said it and Vince cable likened it to something out of Mein Kampf you mean.

That is far closer to real anti-semitism than anything Corbyn has ever done.


I do love watching you backtrack like mad when, as per usual, you've got your facts wrong :lol:


I got the date it happened wrong.

I love the way you try to sweep the closest thing to anti-semitism any recent party leader has done under the carpet by making a fuss about when it happened :lol:

You said that May used an anti-Semitic trope in a speech made when Ed Miliband was the Labour leader. That isn't true
.

It isn't, She used an anti-semitic trope when Corbyn was leader.

Want to adress that ?

We've since established that the speech was made 18 months after Ed Miliband stopped being the Labour leader, and anyway Theresa May would have had no reason to mean to use an anti-Semitic trope even when Ed was leader, let alone after he'd stopped being leader.


And yet she did use an anti-semitic trope as mr Adler and Vince Cable complained about.

And all the while you don't want to talk about that just make a fuss about when it happened as if that is in anyway important in the matter.

Theresa May has close links to the Conservative Friends of Israel. 80% of Tory MPs are members of the CFI, including some of her key cabinet ministers. She has no history of associating with anti-Semites. Does she sound like a woman who'd want to use an anti-Semitic slur?


Well she is a woman who used a famous anti-semitic slur as noticed by Adler and Cable.
Maybe she is the right sort of anti-semite for the Board of British Deputies.

So the context of your accusation (implying that May wanted to have a pop at Miliband for being a Jew, and by extension make insinuations about the whole labour Party) is wrong in that respect.


The allegation was she used an anti-semitic slur in a conference speech.

And for all your hand wringing about anti-semitism you don't seem to want to address the one instance of it happening in front line British politics in recent years.

Do you think may is an anti-semite or just a deeply stupid person who would use an anti-semitic trope without fully understanding what it was?

I'd guess the latter she isn't interesting enough to have a grievous flaw like anti-semitism in her make up.

We've also established that given the context, there is a far more innocuous explanation for what was, at worst, an unfortunate choice of words - namely that she was echoing David Goodhart's thinking


So you are saying Goodhart is an anti-semite or someone too thick to recognise one of the oldest anti-semitic tropes on Earth when he deploys it?

Dog whistling the far right without even realising what you are doing.

Unconscious anti-semitism.

An unfortunate choice of words? You wring those hands Nick, wring them.

You could be right Nick, anti-semitism is so deeply rooted in the political right is is possible they use it without even realising they are doing it, especially a plank like May.

Jeremy Adler and Vince Cable are welcome to their opinions. I'm simply saying that I can't see any real evidence for why May's words would be construed as being aimed at Jews, the aforesaid poor choice of words aside.


Poor choice of words, something you don't seem to allow Corbyn.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 03 Apr 2018, 16:15

yomptepi wrote:
Copehead wrote:
Of all the things to attack him for walking out on a degree course that didn't suit him seems the weirdest.

.


North London Poly? Would have been an HNC or an HND at best. Certainly not a degree. Whatever next?


Well whatever he walked out on; seems strange to attack someone for a decisive decision they made about their education nearly 50 years ago.
But needs must I suppose.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 03 Apr 2018, 16:16

Insouciant Western People wrote:
Copehead wrote:Nick probably thinks Adler is another Self hating Jew. There are so many of them aren't there?!


What on earth are you babbling about now? I've never said anything about so-called 'self-hating Jews'.

A word of advice. Try engaging your brain before you splooge its contents wildly onto the internet.


Is that you or Toby who sees self hating Jews everywhere, I may be getting my right wing middle aged fogies mixed up.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Insouciant Western People » 03 Apr 2018, 16:19

Copehead wrote:The evidence says that the Conservative party has a far greater problem with anti-semites than the labour party, as you'd expect.


Actually, the evidence doesn't say that. The survey refers to people who voted for political parties in the 2015 and 2017 elections. Voters, not party members.

You haven't presented any evidence to show that the Tories have a higher percentage of members exhibiting anti-Semitic tendencies. I'm not saying they necessarily don't. I'm just saying you haven't got any data to suggest or confirm it.

As I mentioned earlier, most Conservative MPs are members of the CFI. That doesn't suggest a widespread prevalence of anti-Semitism among the Parliamentary Conservative Party at least.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Insouciant Western People » 03 Apr 2018, 16:19

Copehead wrote:that you or Toby who sees self hating Jews everywhere, I may be getting my right wing middle aged fogies mixed up.


It was Toby that you said was being anti-Semitic earlier.

You haven't done that to me. Yet.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Insouciant Western People » 03 Apr 2018, 16:28

Copehead wrote:Hitler did support Zionism, the building of a Jewish state in the Middle east, for his own reasons.

Obviously he still detested Jews but he definitely supported Zionism in the 30s as a way of removing Jews from Europe.

What word would you use other than "support"? He actively looked into giving material and monetary support to Jewish "terrorists" in their battle with Palestinians and the British colonialists and he supported the removal of Jews from Europe to Palestine.

That looks like supporting Zionism to me.


Zionism was and is a movement for the liberation and self-determination of the Jewish people, intended to save them from the millenia of persecution that they've suffered.

A gigantically murderous anti-Semite having an aim (the removal of the Jews from Europe) that happened to tangentially coincide with the aim of Zionism to establish a Jewish state in their ancient homeland is not the same as him 'supporting' Zionism.

Hitler is probably the most terrible, and certainly the most genocidally murderous enemy the Jews have ever faced.

Saying that Hitler supported Zionism is like telling an Irishman that Oliver Cromwell supported Irish republicanism. As the very least it is an awful and offensive use of words.

That's why so many people were upset by what he said - that and the fact that Livingstone has form for baiting Jews, so there was a strong suspicion that he said it in the full knowledge of what he was doing in order to wind them up.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Samoan » 03 Apr 2018, 17:38

Copehead wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:
Copehead wrote:
Being brave enough to argue about your curriculum and drop out of a course that doesn't teach what you want to learn seems quite grown up to me.
I certainly wouldn't have been brave enough to say boo to a goose when I was that age.


You do realise that was sarcasm, don't you?

From the Head of The Anti-Corbyn Brigade, there is no other way to be.


Yes :)
I was just adding my 2p worth to your sarcastic slap down on Samoan.

Of all the things to attack him for walking out on a degree course that didn't suit him seems the weirdest.
..

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/apr/01/vast-majority-of-teachers-considered-quitting-in-past-year-poll
80% of teachers considered quitting last year
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/apr/02/teachers-warn-of-growing-poverty-crisis-in-british-schools
..

You've put your spin on it. I disagree. Mine is it demonstrates Corbyn's persistently recalcitrant, peevish, immature temperament.

You've referenced the parlous state of our education system above.

Contrast it with Corbyn who appears to have pissed his private and later grammar school education up the wall by gaining just 2 E grade A levels which is why he only merited polytechnic admission. (3 A levels were then required for university admission.)

I find it lamentable.

It speaks to both the unsuitability of his temperament for high office and his intellectual paucity.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby The Modernist » 03 Apr 2018, 17:39

This whole anti-antisemitism controversy is a nonsense. Are we to believe a party goes from being totally pro semitic to anti-semetic merely because of a change of leader? Clearly there is an agenda here. I see there were 9 Palestinian protesters killed the other day, let's see a bit more protest over that perhaps.

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby The Modernist » 03 Apr 2018, 17:44

Samoan wrote:
Contrast it with Corbyn who appears to have pissed his private and later grammar school education up the wall by gaining just 2 E grade A levels which is why he only merited polytechnic admission. (3 A levels were then required for university admission.)

I find it lamentable.


I find it lamentable that you would judge someone on what they did when they were 18.

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Diamond Dog » 03 Apr 2018, 17:55

The Modernist wrote:
Samoan wrote:
Contrast it with Corbyn who appears to have pissed his private and later grammar school education up the wall by gaining just 2 E grade A levels which is why he only merited polytechnic admission. (3 A levels were then required for university admission.)

I find it lamentable.


I find it lamentable that you would judge someone on what they did when they were 18.



I find just about everything Samoan has to say about Corbyn lamentable.

Samoan wrote:You've put your spin on it. I disagree. Mine is it demonstrates Corbyn's persistently recalcitrant, peevish, immature temperament.


So one action 50 years ago demonstrates an ongoing and lifelong character trait? Anything you did even 20 years ago that you now think hasn't become a lifelong measure of your temperament?
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Belle Lettre » 03 Apr 2018, 17:57

The Modernist wrote:This whole anti-antisemitism controversy is a nonsense. Are we to believe a party goes from being totally pro semitic to anti-semetic merely because of a change of leader? Clearly there is an agenda here. I see there were 9 Palestinian protesters killed the other day, let's see a bit more protest over that perhaps.

Seventeen.
But you will be told they weren't really protestors.
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