May still desperately clinging on to power

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 03 Apr 2018, 11:36

Insouciant Western People wrote:
Copehead wrote:Well lets start with the anti-semitic tropes about stateless people that the Conservative leader Theresa May made in a conference speech when Miliband was labour leader and move from there shall we.

That was May making a speech that if Corbyn had made it would have lead to widespread demands for his immediate resignation for anti-semitism.

Is may and anti-semite? Doubtful, but when Labour had a Jewish leader she made sure she included anti-semitic dog whistles in her conference speech.

https://www.unitetheunion.org/uploaded/documents/(JN7434)%20A4%20Tory%20Racism%20Brochure%20SIN11-26629.pdf


There's some appalling stuff documented in that link, and it's absolutely right that the Conservatives should get hammered for it.

I can't see anything relating to a speech by May when Miliband was leader though. When did she make the speech, and what was the content?



I have posted a link to it earlier in the thread it was when she was Home Sec and it was to conferenceand Vince Cable likened it to something out of Mein Kampf. Miliband, typically, made nothing of it; his problem was he was too nice for modern politics. I think Corbyn is too, he thinks if he is fair and rational then his opponents will be as well.

The Tories and their media have taken the American path where there can be no compromise with your opponents or even the idea that you treat each other honestly. It will destroy politics in this country and polarise the nation as it has done in the States, that cannot be a good thing.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby yomptepi » 03 Apr 2018, 11:42

Diamond Dog wrote:
yomptepi wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:

They're probably not, if only because your Tory Press aren't reporting any issues within the Conservative Party re anti-semitism. I wonder why?

But you carry on frothing at the mouth about the 'paralysis' within the Labout Party re anti-semitism, and I'm sure the Labour Party will just continue to function and gain ground on the Tories because the vast majority of people in the country see this latest press hysteria for exactly what it is - an attempt to deflect away from the shockingly incopmpetent performance of May and her cohorts in virtually every metric that exists.


Which , of course is my whole point. Why are Labour tearing themselves apart when they should be providing some sort of opposition to the tories. Something they have failed completely at. We have a government in complete meltdown, with no direction, fucking up Brexit and not addressing any other issues with any fortitude. Probably the weakest government in living memory. And how do the Labour react? Complete meltdown. Worse than complete meltdown. And every day it gets worse. But as they are beyond criticism , why would they worry. I doubt they have any real desire to inherit the current catastrophic situation left to us by the arsehat Cameron. Who in their right mind would?

.


You don't actually see that the only 'meltdown' going on here is people like you wildly over reacting to a problem that is nowhere near the size or scale that the Tory Press are making it out to be?

No you don't. Because that would require you to be able to filter out bullshit, see something for what it truly is, and not beat your chest about something that is being grossly exaggerated to deflect away from the exact issues you highlight in your post.

You've got a problem, the problem is YOU.


You think I am the problem? Is it me who is on the front pages? All I am doing is pointing out that the crisis is entirely of its own making, because labour have elected a leader who has close contacts with groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, rather than the close contacts with the Israeli government enjoyed by Blair and Miliband. I have no dog in this fight, and you know that. The fact is that Corbyn and his halfwit entourage are doing so much damage to themselves, I don't even need to say anything. It is like they have a AR 15 and are running about the place shooting themselves in the feet for kicks. And you want to see these people in government? How odd.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby yomptepi » 03 Apr 2018, 11:43

Copehead wrote:[ It will destroy politics in this country and polarise the nation as it has done in the States, that cannot be a good thing.


Is that a prediction ( in which case I will put in the pile with all the others and ignore it ) or a scientific fact? ( in which case I will put it in the pile with all the others and ignore it)?
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Diamond Dog » 03 Apr 2018, 11:51

yomptepi wrote:
You think I am the problem? Is it me who is on the front pages? All I am doing is pointing out that the crisis is entirely of its own making, because labour have elected a leader who has close contacts with groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, rather than the close contacts with the Israeli government enjoyed by Blair and Miliband. I have no dog in this fight, and you know that. The fact is that Corbyn and his halfwit entourage are doing so much damage to themselves, I don't even need to say anything. It is like they have a AR 15 and are running about the place shooting themselves in the feet for kicks. And you want to see these people in government? How odd.


What crisis?

Tell me exactly how you think this is 'a crisis'?

Dictionary definition of a crisis : "A time of intense difficulty or danger."

Do you honestly think the current situation fits that decription?
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby yomptepi » 03 Apr 2018, 11:53

Diamond Dog wrote:
yomptepi wrote:
You think I am the problem? Is it me who is on the front pages? All I am doing is pointing out that the crisis is entirely of its own making, because labour have elected a leader who has close contacts with groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, rather than the close contacts with the Israeli government enjoyed by Blair and Miliband. I have no dog in this fight, and you know that. The fact is that Corbyn and his halfwit entourage are doing so much damage to themselves, I don't even need to say anything. It is like they have a AR 15 and are running about the place shooting themselves in the feet for kicks. And you want to see these people in government? How odd.


What crisis?

Tell me exactly how you think this is 'a crisis'?

Dictionary definition of a crisis : "A time of intense difficulty or danger."

Do you honestly think the current situation fits that decription?


No . You are right. There is nothing to see here. We can move on.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Diamond Dog » 03 Apr 2018, 11:54

Good.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby yomptepi » 03 Apr 2018, 11:58

any other news stories you would like to suppress?
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Diamond Dog » 03 Apr 2018, 12:00

Your definition of 'news' probably differs from mine.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Samoan » 03 Apr 2018, 12:12

Weston Drury, Jnr. wrote:It's 'I'll damned well do as I please', isn't it?

Precisely.
It's what he's done all his life: for example, dropping out of polytechnic because he didn't like the syllabus.
Corbyn began a course in Trade Union Studies at North London Polytechnic but left after a year without a degree after a series of arguments with his tutors over the curriculum. *

He's a self-propelled human wrecking ball and a petulant man-child.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Corbyn
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Insouciant Western People » 03 Apr 2018, 12:15

Copehead wrote:I have posted a link to it earlier in the thread it was when she was Home Sec and it was to conference and Vince Cable likened it to something out of Mein Kampf.


It wasn't when she was the Home Secretary, nor was it when Ed Miliband was leader. The reference to 'citizens of nowhere' was used in her conference speech in 2016, when she already leader of the Conservatives. At that point, Ed Miliband had not been leader of Labour for a year and a half. So your attempt to cast a slur at her seems to be without any justification.

Because she was speaking with specific reference to Brexit, the most likely derivation for the phrase is from the work of David Goodhart, who has talked about 'somewheres' and 'anywheres' with reference to the Brexit vote. If you read the speech in full and look at it in context, there is nothing in there to suggest that she was referring to Jews, and indeed, there is no logical explanation to suggest that that was what she was doing.

A far more likely explanation is that Cable picked that phrase out as a stick with which to bash her because he's an ardent remainer.

To go back to the notorious 'rootless cosmopolitans' phrase, which is surely what Cable had in mind, although it was used in both Nazi and Bolshevik parlance before WWII, I'm sure I don't have to tell you that it's most famous as a slur used in left wing anti-Semitism. It was commonly used by Stalin and his henchmen to demonise the Jews.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Insouciant Western People » 03 Apr 2018, 12:22

Copehead wrote:
yomptepi wrote: Livingstone was suspended two years ago.


Ah yes the man who is an anti-semite because he pointed out that there were meeting between Zionists and Nazis in the 30s and that Hitler supported Zionism as a solution to the "Jewish Problem".


We all know there was a lot more to it than that.

Livingstone's saying that Hitler was "supporting Zionism... before he went mad" is a gross and offensive misrepresentation of the truth, and the fact that he chose those words strongly suggests that he's either deeply ignorant of the historical facts, or that he was deliberately trying to bait Jews.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby K » 03 Apr 2018, 13:05

Insouciant Western People wrote:Because she was speaking with specific reference to Brexit, the most likely derivation for the phrase is from the work of David Goodhart, who has talked about 'somewheres' and 'anywheres' with reference to the Brexit vote. If you read the speech in full and look at it in context, there is nothing in there to suggest that she was referring to Jews, and indeed, there is no logical explanation to suggest that that was what she was doing.

Wasn't Goodhart's article that mentioned 'somewheres' published in 2017?

A response to May's speech was seen in a letter to the Guardian, by Jeremy Adler of King's College London:

The greatest of all Enlightenment thinkers, Immanuel Kant, proposed the ideal of world citizenship as a means to achieve perpetual peace. In the 20th century, his views underwrote the founding of the United Nations, an organisation which invokes world citizenship as a means to attain world peace. The very different, pejorative sense of cosmopolitanism adopted by Ms May, however, originates in German antisemitic discourse. It emerged in the 19th century: the “rootless Jew” was seen as a “cosmopolitan” citizen from “nowhere”. This view is echoed in that most vile of all antisemitic texts, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (1903). Subsequently, the prejudice was adopted by the Nazis, and used to justify the slaughter of the Jewish people as “non-citizens” and “non-persons” in the Holocaust. Is that where our xenophobic PM wants to lead us, this time by scapegoating “foreigners”? I don’t appear to be the only one who senses echoes of 1933 in our brave new Britain.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Diamond Dog » 03 Apr 2018, 13:09

Samoan wrote:
Weston Drury, Jnr. wrote:It's 'I'll damned well do as I please', isn't it?

Precisely.
It's what he's done all his life: for example, dropping out of polytechnic because he didn't like the syllabus.
Corbyn began a course in Trade Union Studies at North London Polytechnic but left after a year without a degree after a series of arguments with his tutors over the curriculum. *

He's a self-propelled human wrecking ball and a petulant man-child.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Corbyn


Yes, he is indeed the only politician to ever drop out of further education and (consequently) rightly deserves the man-child insult.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Insouciant Western People » 03 Apr 2018, 13:51

K wrote:Wasn't Goodhart's article that mentioned 'somewheres' published in 2017?


Goodhart's book The Road to Somewhere was published in March 2017, but he's been publishing writing about the subjects of immigration, diversity and multiculturalism since 2004, and his previous book The British Dream: Successes and Failures of Post-War Immigration came out in 2013.

He's also been on the staff at both Demos and the Policy Exchange think tanks, so it's fair to assume that his thinking and writing are well known in centre-right and Conservative circles.

I believe May's speech was largely written by Nick Timothy, and he's known to have had an especially strong interest in the work of the Policy Exchange, so it's not much of a leap to make the connection between Goodhart's thinking and May's speech.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Goat Boy » 03 Apr 2018, 14:16

Weston Drury, Jnr. wrote:It's 'I'll damned well do as I please', isn't it?


I don’t think any of this will change the opinion of much of his support anyway, that’s the thing.

On the contrary I think it strengthens his position with some because it fits into a pre-existing narrative of the brave left winger being targeted by the right wing press because he’s a threat to their status quo. You see it on here in peoples responses and all of this merely confirms what they believe already. I suspect Corbyn probably thinks the same to a degree.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby yomptepi » 03 Apr 2018, 14:25

Goat Boy wrote:
Weston Drury, Jnr. wrote:It's 'I'll damned well do as I please', isn't it?


I don’t think any of this will change the opinion of much of his support anyway, that’s the thing.

On the contrary I think it strengthens his position with some because it fits into a pre-existing narrative of the brave left winger being targeted by the right wing press because he’s a threat to their status quo. You see it on here in peoples responses and all of this merely confirms what they believe already. I suspect Corbyn probably thinks the same to a degree.


Indeed. I suspect he could stand on the corner of Canonbury Park and shoot someone, and still be elected PM in the next election.

All this fake news..

Now where have I heard stuff like this before....
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 03 Apr 2018, 14:26

yomptepi wrote:[q

You think I am the problem? Is it me who is on the front pages? All I am doing is pointing out that the crisis is entirely of its own making, because labour have elected a leader who has close contacts with groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, rather than the close contacts with the Israeli government enjoyed by Blair and Miliband. I have no dog in this fight, and you know that. The fact is that Corbyn and his halfwit entourage are doing so much damage to themselves, I don't even need to say anything. It is like they have a AR 15 and are running about the place shooting themselves in the feet for kicks. And you want to see these people in government? How odd.


But the problem is that is all bollocks isn't it?
He hasn't got close links to Hamas and Hezbollah has he?

What we are seeing here is no longer legitimate politics; is the deployment of lies and innuendo by a full spectrum of media from the BBC to the Daily mail, we are seeing the focus on a spurious issue to the exclusion of all else including the far worse problems that the Tory have with anti-semites in their midst.

Anti-semitism is a societal problem not a Labour Party problem, the Labour party has less of a problem with it than the Conservative Party.

We can see what has happened in the States with demonisation of those you don't agree with driven from the political right and it is happening here now, no good will come of it, it devalues politics and politicians and will eventually lead to violence.

And the common thread is Rupert Murdoch, he has done more damage to the political process in the anglophone West than any person in modern history.

I think it is time to step back here set aside party politics and look at the real damage that is being done to politics in this country the extreme polarisation started with Brexit and is now being doubled down on. Day after day front pages concentrating with a pack mentality on a non-issue while the country's schools, hospitals and services go down the shitter and Brexit is bungled.

No good can come of this, it is new and deeply disturbing.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 03 Apr 2018, 14:28

Insouciant Western People wrote:
Copehead wrote:I have posted a link to it earlier in the thread it was when she was Home Sec and it was to conference and Vince Cable likened it to something out of Mein Kampf.


It wasn't when she was the Home Secretary, nor was it when Ed Miliband was leader. The reference to 'citizens of nowhere' was used in her conference speech in 2016, when she already leader of the Conservatives. At that point, Ed Miliband had not been leader of Labour for a year and a half. So your attempt to cast a slur at her seems to be without any justification.


Well apart from the fact that it happened, she said it and Vince cable likened it to something out of Mein Kampf you mean.

That is far closer to real anti-semitism than anything Corbyn has ever done.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby yomptepi » 03 Apr 2018, 14:30

I agree with most of that. Which makes you wonder why Corbyn doesn't have better control over his party, and why after two years he has still not put this issue to bed. He does carry some responsibility. Even you have to concede that.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Bumblecorn Cats Nightmare » 03 Apr 2018, 14:31

Goat Boy wrote:
Weston Drury, Jnr. wrote:It's 'I'll damned well do as I please', isn't it?


I don’t think any of this will change the opinion of much of his support anyway, that’s the thing.

On the contrary I think it strengthens his position with some because it fits into a pre-existing narrative of the brave left winger being targeted by the right wing press because he’s a threat to their status quo. You see it on here in peoples responses and all of this merely confirms what they believe already. I suspect Corbyn probably thinks the same to a degree.



Indeed.
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