May still desperately clinging on to power

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby yomptepi » 02 Apr 2018, 13:02

Diamond Dog wrote:The right wing reactionary zealot thing is tired, Mike.

You've gone past righteous indignation, straight through semi-amusing parody, and arrived at grotesque caricature.

Time to just be you and stop the foaming at the mouth bit. We know it's not the real you.

Don't let us start believing it may actually be so.


At which point have I ever espoused a right wing view? Criticising the ever more absurd antics of the Labour party does not make me a right wing zealot. In any way. I hold centre left views like many others here. You refuse to see how Labour look to the ordinary moderate voter , with their ridiculous carnival of nonsense. Laughing at their half baked apologies for opposition, and ill formulated attempts at policy does not make me a tory. It just means that the present opposition is failing at every opportunity to do their job. They are a joke. Only children and hopeless romantics could see them in any other light.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Diamond Dog » 02 Apr 2018, 13:49

Centre left views?

Fuck me, you really are a reactionary zealot, incapable of cogent thought and/or understanding your own self.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby PENK » 02 Apr 2018, 14:31

Toby wrote:If anti-semitism in the Labour party has dropped, then why was there a march in London protesting about it?


Because it’s been in the papers and it’s the latest bandwagon.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby yomptepi » 02 Apr 2018, 14:37

Diamond Dog wrote:Centre left views?

Fuck me, you really are a reactionary zealot, incapable of cogent thought and/or understanding your own self.


Now who is foaming at the mouth?
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Diamond Dog » 02 Apr 2018, 14:50

Always you.

I've never once heard you even give the remotest nod to centre left policies - you're a died-in-the-wool Tory who thinks you're not. For whatever reason.

I seriously thought you were joking but clearly not. Your continued insistence on perpetuating this hysterical 'anti-semite' witch hunt, instigated by the gutter right wing press, is appalling. Because you actually believe it. There again, you've believed every bit of every scabberous trope put out by the likes of the Mail and other right wing goons - reiterating them as fact and evidence- that we shouldn't be so surprised.

I expected better of you.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Goat Boy » 02 Apr 2018, 15:39

Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


Copehead wrote:we have lost touch with anything normal

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Diamond Dog » 02 Apr 2018, 16:13

Is anyone suggesting there isn't a problem at all?

If it's so blindingly obvious, why has it only very recently become front page news?
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby yomptepi » 02 Apr 2018, 16:30

Diamond Dog wrote:Is anyone suggesting there isn't a problem at all?

If it's so blindingly obvious, why has it only very recently become front page news?


Only recently?

Ken Livingstone was suspended two years ago. This business has been rumbling on since then. Do you read newspapers?
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby yomptepi » 02 Apr 2018, 16:47

Diamond Dog wrote:Always you.

I've never once heard you even give the remotest nod to centre left policies - you're a died-in-the-wool Tory who thinks you're not. For whatever reason.

I seriously thought you were joking but clearly not. Your continued insistence on perpetuating this hysterical 'anti-semite' witch hunt, instigated by the gutter right wing press, is appalling. Because you actually believe it. There again, you've believed every bit of every scabberous trope put out by the likes of the Mail and other right wing goons - reiterating them as fact and evidence- that we shouldn't be so surprised.

I expected better of you.

Also wrong.

I have at no point suggested this an anti Semite witch hunt.

What it is is symptomatic of the difficulties the current party have with dealing with their former support of Israel, and the current leaderships affiliation with Hamas and Hezbollah. A situation which is almost impossible to resolve, and which has caused the party to eat its own tail. All of which plays directly into Israeli hands. When ever anyone says anything even remotely critical of Israel, they are dubbed Anti Semite. This makes it very difficult to discuss the very real and very urgent situation in Israel without being accused of being an Anti Semite. A bit like it is almost impossible to criticize Jeremy Corbyn without being called a foaming right wing zealot. I don' t agree that this situation is being instigated by the right wing press. It is being instigated by forces within the Labour party who want to able to criticize Israel for their policy, rather than their religious beliefs. And Israel will not allow it. And now the whole thing has turned into a massive bun fight which is splitting the party.
Are you suggesting that the press should ignore it. Should Labour put up " Nothing to see here " placards as we watch people being fired from important jobs for seemingly toeing the wrong party line? Somewhere in all this there has to be a grain of truth. There has to be an element of the Labour party which can be described by certain factions as Anti Semitic. Whether that is accurate or fair doesn't seem to matter. What does matter is that it is damaging the party , and it is damaging Corbyn. To the point where ha has had to take down his personal facebook page because it has links to discredited sites he no longer wanted to be associated with. For what ever reason.

I have no dog in this in fight. I am just standing an the fringe poking it with a sharp stick.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Goat Boy » 02 Apr 2018, 16:55

Diamond Dog wrote:Is anyone suggesting there isn't a problem at all?


It's just that I was reading your posts and believing it was all some kind of right wing conspiracy, an invention to get at Corbyn essentially:

Your continued insistence on perpetuating this hysterical 'anti-semite' witch hunt, instigated by the gutter right wing press, is appalling. Because you actually believe it. There again, you've believed every bit of every scabberous trope put out by the likes of the Mail and other right wing goons - reiterating them as fact and evidence- that we shouldn't be so surprised.


I thought it was interesting that Momentum are going against the conspiracy line and stating it is not just right wing smears and it is also "more widespread" that they understood, that's all. Do you disagree with them then?

Diamond Dog wrote wrote:If it's so blindingly obvious, why has it only very recently become front page news?


First of all, it's clear that not everybody within the Labour movement and the left in general can recognise anti-semitism. The response of some to all this merely reaffirms it. There is a blind spot there as I've talked about. Having Corbyn as leader has put this sorta thing under the spotlight and as time goes by and people dig up more things about Corbyn (and others of course) more of this unpleasantness comes to light and the more the press (both left and right) write about it. The controversy of the mural and Corbyns supportive comment, which is what appeared to be the final straw, is fairly obvious, no? This is big news and the press will gorge accordingly.

And of course the right wing press smell an opportunity for a kicking, that's how the game works, but that doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist or is merely an exaggeration used to beat poor, innocent, Jezza by the right wing press although they will certainly want to exploit it. To state the obvious some people on left wing papers have been taking him to task as well.
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Toby » 02 Apr 2018, 17:48

Both sides put out propaganda. To suggest that one side is harmless whilst the other is venal suggests a myopic view of politics.

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 02 Apr 2018, 18:02

Toby wrote:Well, my friends in North London don't seem to think so.

There is no doubt, that like racism, there are degrees of anti-Semitism.

If anti-semitism in the Labour party has dropped, then why was there a march in London protesting about it?


Why did 200-300 people gather outside parliament in the face of a far larger counter demonstration of Jewish supporters of the labour party?
Probably because they were Tories and they knew they would get on the 6 o'clock news whereas the counter demonstration wouldn't.

Your friends in North London aren't a YouGov poll asking direct and indirect questions about anti-semitism in all the main parties regularly over the last few years are they?
They are an anecdote.
The data says that anti-semitism has fallen significantly since Corbyn came to power it isn't difficult to work out why - he has brought hundreds of thousands of left wing people back to the labour Party and left wing people are statistically the least anti-semitic sector of British society.

Obviously as anti-semitism is a societal problem he has probably increased the number of anti-semitic people within the labour party whilst decreasing its statistical level.

But anti-semitism resides in the main where it always has done, in the Tory Party and the wider right.

Which makes you wonder why any one would be stupid enough to believe that the Labour party - set up by people who included a large contingent of Jews and whose last leader was Jewish and had to suffer the anti-semitic dogwhistle racism of a press now gunning for Corbyn - has a problem with anti-semitism and the Tory Party - whose current leader resurrected the stateless Jew trope in a conference speech whilst Miliband was leader- doesn't.

I mean how stupid or ignorant do you have to be to believe that?
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 02 Apr 2018, 18:05

yomptepi wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:Is anyone suggesting there isn't a problem at all?

If it's so blindingly obvious, why has it only very recently become front page news?


Only recently?

Ken Livingstone was suspended two years ago. This business has been rumbling on since then. Do you read newspapers?


Ah yes the man who is an anti-semite because he pointed out that there were meeting between Zionists and Nazis in the 30s and that Hitler supported Zionism as a solution to the "Jewish Problem".
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 02 Apr 2018, 18:06

Toby wrote:The reality I'm afraid is that a party that has Marxist doctrine at its heart will always have elements of anti-Semitism.

.


:lol:

Comedy Gold.

You really are a complete prune aren't you.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby yomptepi » 02 Apr 2018, 18:12

Copehead wrote:
yomptepi wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:Is anyone suggesting there isn't a problem at all?

If it's so blindingly obvious, why has it only very recently become front page news?


Only recently?

Ken Livingstone was suspended two years ago. This business has been rumbling on since then. Do you read newspapers?


Ah yes the man who is an anti-semite because he pointed out that there were meeting between Zionists and Nazis in the 30s and that Hitler supported Zionism as a solution to the "Jewish Problem".


I did not venture an opinion on the accusations against Red Ken. Merely that this whole affair has been running at least as long as he has been under suspension. Don't put your lies into my mouth.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 02 Apr 2018, 18:25

yomptepi wrote:
Copehead wrote:
yomptepi wrote:
Only recently?

Ken Livingstone was suspended two years ago. This business has been rumbling on since then. Do you read newspapers?


Ah yes the man who is an anti-semite because he pointed out that there were meeting between Zionists and Nazis in the 30s and that Hitler supported Zionism as a solution to the "Jewish Problem".


I did not venture an opinion on the accusations against Red Ken. Merely that this whole affair has been running at least as long as he has been under suspension. Don't put your lies into my mouth.


I wasn't making any comment at all on the timing, on that you are right.

The political night went over night from - The labour party can't be trusted because their leader is a Jew - to - The labour Party can't be trusted because their leader is an anti-semite. When Corbyn took over from Miliband.


You have to admire the brassneck and sheer will to power ( to coin a phrase ) that exists on the political right.

The shift from "look at the funny Jew" to " Look at the funny man who doesn't like Jews" was seamless
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby yomptepi » 02 Apr 2018, 18:59

Copehead wrote:
yomptepi wrote:
Copehead wrote:
Ah yes the man who is an anti-semite because he pointed out that there were meeting between Zionists and Nazis in the 30s and that Hitler supported Zionism as a solution to the "Jewish Problem".


I did not venture an opinion on the accusations against Red Ken. Merely that this whole affair has been running at least as long as he has been under suspension. Don't put your lies into my mouth.


I wasn't making any comment at all on the timing, on that you are right.

The political night went over night from - The labour party can't be trusted because their leader is a Jew - to - The labour Party can't be trusted because their leader is an anti-semite. When Corbyn took over from Miliband.


You have to admire the brassneck and sheer will to power ( to coin a phrase ) that exists on the political right.

The shift from "look at the funny Jew" to " Look at the funny man who doesn't like Jews" was seamless


I see no anti Semitism here...
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Toby » 02 Apr 2018, 19:12

IIRC the Mail article on Ralph Miliband (written by Geoffrey Levy) was purely about his firebrand socialist politics, nothing to do with being a Jew.

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Deebank » 02 Apr 2018, 19:59

Toby wrote:IIRC the Mail article on Ralph Miliband (written by Geoffrey Levy) was purely about his firebrand socialist politics, nothing to do with being a Jew.


Well, no, they didn’t write ‘Don’t vote for this Jew!’ But they wouldn’t would they. You didn’t need to be any sort of expert to discern the dog whistling between the lines in much of the media coverage.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Toby » 02 Apr 2018, 20:05

Really? Are you suggesting that the Daily Mail is an anti-Semitic newspaper?

I'm sure that is news to Melanie Phillips.