May still desperately clinging on to power

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: May calls a snap election on June 8

Postby yomptepi » 20 Apr 2017, 09:54

Deebank wrote:
K wrote:I have to be honest, I hate the Tories. I hate nearly everything about them. I always have done. Thatcher was in power throughout my formative years from 7 until 19 and she just destroyed society. Tories always paint things at an individual level, "look what our policies will do for you..." and always turn a blind eye to the importance of society. It's why they seem to be happy having charities fund the work the state should be doing. I don't trust Tories and their hideous incompetence means I am totally bewildered when people say they do trust them. Every time the Tories are in power they fuck up the economy.
First, Labour invariably borrows less than the Conservatives. The data always shows that.
And second, Labour has always repaid debt more often than the Conservatives, and has always repaid more debt, on average.

But Tories are the "natural party of government". By which they mean "a party that feel entitled to power". I fucking hate them.

I know I'm biased.


That sums them up very nicely for me too.

They also have this spurious idea that choice is crucial in things like medicine and education.

It is a complete ref herring - we just need good, well led schools and hospitals.

Competition in these areas is just bullshit.


Like all cod socialists, you seem to have completely forgotten about the thirteen years of Labour government, when all the policies you mention as being Tory policies, were carried out with some enthusiasm. Certainly much of the financial burden on Schools and Hospitals is down to the Labour party's voracious appetite for Private finance initiatives,and those extortionate 30 year fixed interest repayments Blair was so keen to " take advantage " of.
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Re: May calls a snap election on June 8

Postby Canis lupus » 20 Apr 2017, 09:56

yomptepi wrote:
Meet the new boss...


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/19/yvette-cooper-pmqs-labour-mps-theresa-may

...clearly, the only credible leadership candidate 2 years ago. Ironically, she'd be cantering (like her hubby) towards victory right now
And who knows: she'd maybe have done something to stop Brexit, also?

Ah well
Last edited by Canis lupus on 20 Apr 2017, 09:58, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: May calls a snap election on June 8

Postby Diamond Dog » 20 Apr 2017, 09:57

Toby wrote:In many respects this is a grand and wonderful notion, but as Thatcher said "there is no such thing as society", there is instead a bewildering patchwork of alliances and relationships composed of individuals, families, neighbourhoods and the like that contain all the various views, perspectives, needs and wants that make up our civic society, from religion to enterprise, from education to family. The suggestion that people have to adhere to a specific vision is problematic, because, generally, we all have different views on lots of different things, and our needs and wants are more closely allied to our locality than being shoehorned into a larger worldview.


Of course the Conservatives have never tried to shoehorn us all into any collective ideology, have they?
Last edited by Diamond Dog on 20 Apr 2017, 09:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: May calls a snap election on June 8

Postby Deebank » 20 Apr 2017, 09:57

yomptepi wrote:
Deebank wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:
Sadly, whilst people witter on about stuff like this seriously, it sounds feasible. It isn't. Look at the Tories since Thatcher - Major, Cameron & May. Is there anyone who thinks - in twenty years time- they will be remembered for anything but broken promises and crushing mediocrity?


Certainly, what they'll be remembered for long-term is destroying the union for short-term political gain.... And they are meant to be the Conservative and Unionist Party :lol: Tragic.


I think you could probably blame the SNP for that.


Tony Blair surely! :o

But seriously, the series of events ...
The SNP lost their independence referendum.
Arse-clown double act Cameron and Osbourne foisted the Brexit referendum on a largely unconcerned British public for their own short-term party political reasons - having promised Scotland that staying in the Union was the only way to guarantee EU membership thus gifting Sturgeon a more than valid reason to push for another independence vote.

You can't 'blame' the SNP for doing what is after all its raison d'etre, the blame clearly lies with the massive mis-calculations of the political genii that run the Conservative & Unionist Party.
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Re: May calls a snap election on June 8

Postby Toby » 20 Apr 2017, 10:00

Deebank wrote:Arse-clown double act Cameron and Osbourne foisted the Brexit referendum on a largely unconcerned British public


I don't buy this "the public weren't concerned about an EU referendum" stuff to be honest. If this wasn't the case, then UKIP wouldn't have had any traction in elections. They also wouldn't be so highly represented in the European Parliament.

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Re: May calls a snap election on June 8

Postby Deebank » 20 Apr 2017, 10:02

yomptepi wrote:
Deebank wrote:
K wrote:I have to be honest, I hate the Tories. I hate nearly everything about them. I always have done. Thatcher was in power throughout my formative years from 7 until 19 and she just destroyed society. Tories always paint things at an individual level, "look what our policies will do for you..." and always turn a blind eye to the importance of society. It's why they seem to be happy having charities fund the work the state should be doing. I don't trust Tories and their hideous incompetence means I am totally bewildered when people say they do trust them. Every time the Tories are in power they fuck up the economy.

But Tories are the "natural party of government". By which they mean "a party that feel entitled to power". I fucking hate them.

I know I'm biased.


That sums them up very nicely for me too.

They also have this spurious idea that choice is crucial in things like medicine and education.

It is a complete ref herring - we just need good, well led schools and hospitals.

Competition in these areas is just bullshit.


Like all cod socialists, you seem to have completely forgotten about the thirteen years of Labour government, when all the policies you mention as being Tory policies, were carried out with some enthusiasm. Certainly much of the financial burden on Schools and Hospitals is down to the Labour party's voracious appetite for Private finance initiatives,and those extortionate 30 year fixed interest repayments Blair was so keen to " take advantage " of.


I haven't forgotten I just consider Blair to be more Tory than socialist. Always have done.
Shit as he was, he was still a million times better than the tory alternative. William Hague :lol: , Michael Howerd :lol: Ian fucking Duncan aresehole Smith :lol: :lol: :lol:

We may have ended up in the shite, but we dodged a few bullets on our way down the pan.
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Re: May calls a snap election on June 8

Postby Deebank » 20 Apr 2017, 10:05

Toby wrote:
Deebank wrote:Arse-clown double act Cameron and Osbourne foisted the Brexit referendum on a largely unconcerned British public


I don't buy this "the public weren't concerned about an EU referendum" stuff to be honest. If this wasn't the case, then UKIP wouldn't have had any traction in elections. They also wouldn't be so highly represented in the European Parliament.


At the 2015 election - whether you believe these poling things or not and they can only ever be a rough indicator - Europe ranked something like 10th on the list of peoples' concerns.

And UKIP often poled well in areas with concerns about immigration - so europe wasn't the whole story.
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Re: May calls a snap election on June 8

Postby Goat Boy » 20 Apr 2017, 10:17

Toby wrote:
K wrote:I have to be honest, I hate the Tories. I hate nearly everything about them. I always have done. Thatcher was in power throughout my formative years from 7 until 19 and she just destroyed society. Tories always paint things at an individual level, "look what our policies will do for you..." and always turn a blind eye to the importance of society.


And yet you are deep down a closet Tory :lol: . You are happy to live in an area that is Tory for one thing, reaping the benefits of the type of civic society it promulgates.

I think the distinction can be down to the depiction of society. The left wants to build an all-inclusive society that everyone buys into - the same sort of vision, from healthcare to education, everyone attending the same schools and having the same education etc.

In many respects this is a grand and wonderful notion, but as Thatcher said "there is no such thing as society", there is instead a bewildering patchwork of alliances and relationships composed of individuals, families, neighbourhoods and the like that contain all the various views, perspectives, needs and wants that make up our civic society, from religion to enterprise, from education to family. The suggestion that people have to adhere to a specific vision is problematic, because, generally, we all have different views on lots of different things, and our needs and wants are more closely allied to our locality than being shoehorned into a larger worldview.


It is problematic, especially in yer average western democracy compared to a country like China obviously. To create a vision that people buy into is possible but incredibly difficult and would probably require some kind of national disaster. At the same time we need grand visions, something to aspire to and push towards, even if the journey is agonisingly slow. That, to me anyway, is the job of the left. Not great sweeping change - not really possible in a country like ours - but gradual incremental change towards something more inclusive. How that is achieved, however, well, I'm fucked if I know currently. The ideological inflexibility of the left causes so many problems
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Re: May calls a snap election on June 8

Postby Diamond Dog » 20 Apr 2017, 10:17

:{ wrote:
yomptepi wrote:
Meet the new boss...


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/19/yvette-cooper-pmqs-labour-mps-theresa-may

...clearly, the only credible leadership candidate 2 years ago. Ironically, she'd be cantering (like her hubby) towards victory right now
And who knows: she'd maybe have done something to stop Brexit, also?

Ah well


Somewhat of a shame that during that Leadership campaign she consistently led the 'race to the right' so that she actually looked more like a Conservative than even Liz Kendall & Andy Burnham.

A missed opportunity? No - we all saw exactly what she would have been like as the Opposition Leader. All her guff now from the back benches is exactly that - throwaway opportunism.
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Re: May calls a snap election on June 8

Postby Deebank » 20 Apr 2017, 10:22

Goat Boy wrote:
Toby wrote:
K wrote:I have to be honest, I hate the Tories. I hate nearly everything about them. I always have done. Thatcher was in power throughout my formative years from 7 until 19 and she just destroyed society. Tories always paint things at an individual level, "look what our policies will do for you..." and always turn a blind eye to the importance of society.


And yet you are deep down a closet Tory :lol: . You are happy to live in an area that is Tory for one thing, reaping the benefits of the type of civic society it promulgates.

I think the distinction can be down to the depiction of society. The left wants to build an all-inclusive society that everyone buys into - the same sort of vision, from healthcare to education, everyone attending the same schools and having the same education etc.

In many respects this is a grand and wonderful notion, but as Thatcher said "there is no such thing as society", there is instead a bewildering patchwork of alliances and relationships composed of individuals, families, neighbourhoods and the like that contain all the various views, perspectives, needs and wants that make up our civic society, from religion to enterprise, from education to family. The suggestion that people have to adhere to a specific vision is problematic, because, generally, we all have different views on lots of different things, and our needs and wants are more closely allied to our locality than being shoehorned into a larger worldview.


It is problematic, especially in yer average western democracy compared to a country like China obviously. To create a vision that people buy into is possible but incredibly difficult and would probably require some kind of national disaster. At the same time we need grand visions, something to aspire to and push towards, even if the journey is agonisingly slow. That, to me anyway, is the job of the left. Not great sweeping change - not really possible in a country like ours - but gradual incremental change towards something more inclusive. How that is achieved, however, well, I'm fucked if I know currently. The ideological inflexibility of the left causes so many problems


We don't want or need any grand vision.
We need schools and hospitals with a good consistent standard - they don;t need to be in competition for fuck's sake! That's a rediculous notion.

If you need proof that it could work in a western domocracy check out places like Finland. Of course there's no such thing as a perfect solution, but shoe-horning in competition and making thes institution vie for their funding is a horrible, corrosive elitist way of going about things - no matter which party does it.
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Re: May calls a snap election on June 8

Postby The Prof » 20 Apr 2017, 10:25

yomptepi wrote:
The Prof wrote:In the fall out from the last election the consensus amongst a lot of people was that Labour shouldn't be Tory-lite. You can't win an election be being less nasty than the Tories. So the Labour party moved away from young men in smart suits and spin doctors to a leader who is far from young and without any spin. But the policies, that aren't *that* radical but promise a fairer society, aren't getting heard.
I think people really do want young men in smart suits to run the Labour party, really.
David Milliband with Clive Lewis as Deputy - the only ticket I can think of at present to rebuild and prepare for the election in 2022.


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Re: May calls a snap election on June 8

Postby yomptepi » 20 Apr 2017, 10:27

Toby wrote:
Deebank wrote:Arse-clown double act Cameron and Osbourne foisted the Brexit referendum on a largely unconcerned British public


I don't buy this "the public weren't concerned about an EU referendum" stuff to be honest. If this wasn't the case, then UKIP wouldn't have had any traction in elections. They also wouldn't be so highly represented in the European Parliament.


And Tony Blair wouldn't have had a referendum on our membership of the EU in three consecutive manifesto's. The fact that he reneged on that vote three times speaks volumes. I still have no idea why Cameron thought it was a good idea...
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Re: May calls a snap election on June 8

Postby Goat Boy » 20 Apr 2017, 10:29

Grand visions are necessary to inspire people even if they are largely impossible. That's what motivates many on the left. Personally I don't buy into them but that's just me.

The Scandinavian comparison is one that is brought up a lot but, stating the obvious, culturally and historically there are key differences there that make it much harder for us to import their kind of social democracy over here (not to mention that there are differences over there too in how these things are applied).
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Re: May calls a snap election on June 8

Postby Diamond Dog » 20 Apr 2017, 10:31

yomptepi wrote:
And Tony Blair wouldn't have had a referendum on our membership of the EU in three consecutive manifesto's. The fact that he reneged on that vote three times speaks volumes. I still have no idea why Cameron thought it was a good idea...


Yes you do. To appease the swivel eyed wing of his party.

You're being disingenuous - you fully well know that's the reason.
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Re: May calls a snap election on June 8

Postby yomptepi » 20 Apr 2017, 10:31

Deebank wrote:
yomptepi wrote:
Like all cod socialists, you seem to have completely forgotten about the thirteen years of Labour government, when all the policies you mention as being Tory policies, were carried out with some enthusiasm. Certainly much of the financial burden on Schools and Hospitals is down to the Labour party's voracious appetite for Private finance initiatives,and those extortionate 30 year fixed interest repayments Blair was so keen to " take advantage " of.


I haven't forgotten I just consider Blair to be more Tory than socialist. Always have done.
Shit as he was, he was still a million times better than the tory alternative. William Hague :lol: , Michael Howerd :lol: Ian fucking Duncan aresehole Smith :lol: :lol: :lol:

We may have ended up in the shite, but we dodged a few bullets on our way down the pan.


Which surely plays into Toby's theory of the tory's being the natural party of government. If you regard Blair as a tory, then we have had a conservative government since 1979, and Labour really are dead.
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Re: May calls a snap election on June 8

Postby Deebank » 20 Apr 2017, 10:34

Goat Boy wrote:Grand visions are necessary to inspire people even if they are largely impossible. That's what motivates many on the left. Personally I don't buy into them but that's just me.

The Scandinavian comparison is one that is brought up a lot but, stating the obvious, culturally and historically there are key differences there that make it much harder for us to import their kind of social democracy over here (not to mention that there are differences over there too in how these things are applied).


And yet people like Gove are happy to apply total cobblers from China and various US Private school education gurus - that are clearly much further from any working UK model. I know lots of Finns and they're not that different from us!
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Re: May calls a snap election on June 8

Postby yomptepi » 20 Apr 2017, 10:34

Diamond Dog wrote:
yomptepi wrote:
And Tony Blair wouldn't have had a referendum on our membership of the EU in three consecutive manifesto's. The fact that he reneged on that vote three times speaks volumes. I still have no idea why Cameron thought it was a good idea...


Yes you do. To appease the swivel eyed wing of his party.

You're being disingenuous - you fully well know that's the reason.


Not at all. He was on a roll. And then he calls a referendum on something he clearly has given absolutely no thought to. He had no idea what the mood of the country was. He had done nothing to measure the mood of our European partners, and he had no plans on what he would do if we voted leave. It is almost as if decided to do it on a whim.
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Re: May calls a snap election on June 8

Postby Toby » 20 Apr 2017, 10:35

Deebank wrote:If you need proof that it could work in a western domocracy check out places like Finland. Of course there's no such thing as a perfect solution, but shoe-horning in competition and making thes institution vie for their funding is a horrible, corrosive elitist way of going about things - no matter which party does it.


I'm on record previously as saying that comparative analogies between other western European countries on issues like welfare and education is not helpful. There are a huge number of variables that point to why something is a success in one country and not others. Finland for example has a very small population compared to the UK. I do get your point though- I do generally fear a US style medical system with the introduction of a third party insurer into the relationship between a healthcare system and the individual.

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Re: May calls a snap election on June 8

Postby Toby » 20 Apr 2017, 10:37

Deebank wrote:
And yet people like Gove are happy to apply total cobblers from China and various US Private school education gurus - that are clearly much further from any working UK model. I know lots of Finns and they're not that different from us!


Remember that one can be a Tory and not agree with the current government. I agree in the main - I find this sort of cultural borrowing to be massively unhelpful.

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Re: May calls a snap election on June 8

Postby Goat Boy » 20 Apr 2017, 10:38

Deebank wrote:
Goat Boy wrote:Grand visions are necessary to inspire people even if they are largely impossible. That's what motivates many on the left. Personally I don't buy into them but that's just me.

The Scandinavian comparison is one that is brought up a lot but, stating the obvious, culturally and historically there are key differences there that make it much harder for us to import their kind of social democracy over here (not to mention that there are differences over there too in how these things are applied).


And yet people like Gove are happy to apply total cobblers from China and various US Private school education gurus - that are clearly much further from any working UK model. I know lots of Finns and they're not that different from us!


I'm not saying they are "different" individually but there is maybe a more collective perspective over there. Some countries are like that. Look at Japan for example.

Gove is a thick cunt.
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