May still desperately clinging on to power

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Toby
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to poweit r

Postby Toby » 01 Nov 2018, 10:01

If you have a look at what happened with the Vote Leave campaign, they spent a bit too much money. How you actually try to calculate a political campaign spending money into people voting is impossible to really analyse, so whether it had much of an impact is difficult to say. It could have been the difference between them winning and losing, but you just can’t make a conclusive argument because the evidence is impossible to put together.

The referendum was also unusual because it was two entirely “new” factions composed of people from across the political spectrum.

Parties break the law with electoral spending on a regular basis. They are usually fined when they do so. I trust the electoral commission to do its job properly and they did. The people behind it clearly felt that it didn’t invalidate the result.

People are lied to on electoral campaigns all the time. Parties make pledges that they cannot hope to fulfil. If a party lies on a regular basis and totally fails to deliver what it promises, then the simple fact is that people don’t vote for them again in the future.

Of course, with Leave and Remain those ghostly political alliances won’t come together again, but the fact remains that referenda are what they are; a chance for the people to make a decision that politicians then try to deliver on their behalf.

I think on the Europe front, if the referendum hadn’t happened, then I feel that UKIP would have taken more and more votes from both Labour and the Tories. The referendum killed UKIP. It might claim both Labour and the Tories too.

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Toby » 01 Nov 2018, 10:03

Deebank wrote:On the other hand, another vote once we know the terms under which we are exiting seems wholly democratic.
No one is stopping anyone from voting to leave again. I don' see the problem. Even Farage has flirted with the idea.



I suspect that may come in the form of a general election once the deal has been agreed.

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Deebank » 01 Nov 2018, 10:12

Toby wrote:
Deebank wrote:On the other hand, another vote once we know the terms under which we are exiting seems wholly democratic.
No one is stopping anyone from voting to leave again. I don' see the problem. Even Farage has flirted with the idea.



I suspect that may come in the form of a general election once the deal has been agreed.


It might well do, but there's no guarantee that one main party will represent Leave and the other Remain. It really all depends on which way Corbyn will jump.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby the masked man » 01 Nov 2018, 11:02

As Corbyn is a noted Euroskeptic, he will obviously come down on the Leave side. He has repeatedly said he wants a ‘jobs first’ Brexit, whatever that vacuous phrase means. The 48% now have no effective representation in Parliament. Both main parties support the ruinous Brexit farce.

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Toby » 01 Nov 2018, 11:36

The 48% should accept the result graciously and come together to support whatever form of Brexit is agreed upon by our politicians and move the country forward.

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby the masked man » 01 Nov 2018, 12:05

You do know that the referendum was only advisory?

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby The Prof » 01 Nov 2018, 12:15

Toby wrote:The 48% should accept the result graciously and come together to support whatever form of Brexit is agreed upon by our politicians and move the country forward.


It's not a football result and that is simply not going to happen.
Nobody is going to get the Brexit they think they've voted for.
It's a course of action that will probably range from slightly bad to catastrophic for the whole country depending on what kind of trade deal is thrashed out.

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Jeemo » 01 Nov 2018, 12:24

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46056337

what happens when you spend a bit too much money
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby The Prof » 01 Nov 2018, 12:24

I must admit to having never read Farmers Weekly until somebody pointed this out but I think the author nails it on the head here.



"Time to grow up and change our minds about Brexit

Having the courage to admit “we’re making a big mistake here”, however confident we might have been in our chosen course of action, is what differentiates real leaders from those timid souls, too fearful of derision to do the right thing.

Yes, I am talking about Brexit… again. But this is exactly the conversation we need to have now before it’s too late.

Yes, we had a referendum. Yes, there was a clear, albeit not overwhelming majority that chose to leave, which in a democratic society has to be respected.

However, it quickly became clear that, far from delivering a brave new world, we had in fact been sold a big, fat, delusional lie, fuelled by the dogma and hubris of those vainly clinging to fading memories of our imperial past.

Increasingly self-evident folly
By pursuing this increasingly self-evident folly we have unwittingly made ourselves a national laughing stock; an object of ridicule for such odious individuals as Jean-Claude Juncker, who would hitherto have never felt so emboldened as to publicly mock our leaders in the way he has.

Meanwhile, the rest of Europe looks on in bewilderment at the self-inflicted humiliation of a nation they all, albeit grudgingly at times, looked up to.

The cold and unyielding prospect of life after the EU is beginning to weigh ever more heavily on the minds of even the most ardent Brexiteer, as the chances of securing favourable trade deals with even our supposedly closest allies appear increasingly distant.

It is sadly ironic that, even within this previously triumphant caucus, the jingoistic tenor of post-referendum euphoria has given way to an altogether grimmer Dunkirk spirit, as the reality of what we have actually voted for slowly starts to dawn.

Bonfire of regulation
For agriculture, any thoughts of a bonfire of regulation at home is vanishing as quickly as the proverbial politician’s promise, with ever more onerous yet largely cosmetic home-grown environmental legislation designed to appease the green lobby at the expense of our competitiveness.

This, combined with the growing prospect of our government waiving WTO tariffs on food imports as one of the few levers it will have left to control inflation, paints a pretty grim picture for all but the most established niche producers.

Brussels is a flawed and in many ways morally bankrupt institution, but a united, peaceful Europe, built on mutual trade and interdependence, is anything but. Whichever way you look at it, we cannot hope or expect to influence the former if we are not a part of the latter.

If, in the light of what we know now, the genuine will of the UK electorate is still to leave, then advocates of Brexit have nothing to fear from a second referendum.

If it isn’t, then denying us the opportunity to change our minds while we still can is a denial of the very democratic process they so ardently espouse."

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Deebank » 01 Nov 2018, 13:58

the masked man wrote:As Corbyn is a noted Euroskeptic, he will obviously come down on the Leave side. He has repeatedly said he wants a ‘jobs first’ Brexit, whatever that vacuous phrase means. The 48% now have no effective representation in Parliament. Both main parties support the ruinous Brexit farce.


There are a couple of things wrong with this I think.

a) Regardless of his own opinions (see also nuclear power and nuclear weapons) Corbyn leads a pro-European party. Labour was and is pro-remain and it is a democratic organisation.So in the end he will have to lump it if he doesn't agree.

b) while Corbyn has largely been painted as 'lukewarm' on Europe by the media, his stated position is enthusiastically for remaining inside a reformed EU and/or 70% in favour. Personally I have seen nothing in the last three years to make me doubt that.While I would agree that JC in line with the Bennite stance was euroskeptic, his position has clearly changed.

I would suggest it remains to be seen whether Labour will support any 'ruinous brexit farce'.
I've been talking about writing a book - 25 years of TEFL - for a few years now. I've got it in me.

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby caramba » 01 Nov 2018, 15:02

The one thing that everyone on both sides seems to have forgotten is that once the Brexit negotiations reach their end and we are out, several new
rounds of negotiations will begin.

Knowing that we desperately needs to secure some - any - kind of trade deal, every one of those potential new trade partners is going to screw the UK every which way from Sunday.

David Cameron should be hung, drawn and quartered for what the pandora's box he has opened and Jeremy Corbyn should be right behind him in the queue for a public flogging for doing next to fuck all to try and stop the collective madness.

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby the masked man » 01 Nov 2018, 16:24

Deebank wrote:
I would suggest it remains to be seen whether Labour will support any 'ruinous brexit farce'.


Ordering his MPs to back Theresa May's premature issuing of Article 50 shows exactly what Jeremy Corbyn thinks. He wants this to happen, and has stressed that if a general election is held, a Labour government would not cancel Brexit but seek to negotiate different terms with the EU for an exit. Remind me, what is the point of an opposition again? Because in my book, supporting a treacherous government as it launches an act of catastrophic self-harm is not part of an opposition's remit. Particular as Labour supporters (and ex-Labour voters like myself) were overwhelmingly anti-Brexit.

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Deebank » 01 Nov 2018, 17:02

the masked man wrote:
Deebank wrote:
I would suggest it remains to be seen whether Labour will support any 'ruinous brexit farce'.


Ordering his MPs to back Theresa May's premature issuing of Article 50 shows exactly what Jeremy Corbyn thinks. He wants this to happen, and has stressed that if a general election is held, a Labour government would not cancel Brexit but seek to negotiate different terms with the EU for an exit. Remind me, what is the point of an opposition again? Because in my book, supporting a treacherous government as it launches an act of catastrophic self-harm is not part of an opposition's remit. Particular as Labour supporters (and ex-Labour voters like myself) were overwhelmingly anti-Brexit.


That's how I feel every time the country votes the tories (back) into government.
Sadly though that's democracy.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Toby » 04 Nov 2018, 14:38

"Sadly that's democracy"'?

So you'd rather live in a one party state? Why am I not surprised....

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Deebank » 04 Nov 2018, 16:33

Toby wrote:"Sadly that's democracy"'?

So you'd rather live in a one party state? Why am I not surprised....


Yes, sadly you don’t always get the result you want.
Only an idiot would see that as proof that I want to live in a one party state. You’re not an idiot are you ?

But Judging by the glee with which tories initially greeted Corbyn as Labour leader that’s what they were hoping... I’m glad to note he wiped the idiot smile off their faces at the last election.
I've been talking about writing a book - 25 years of TEFL - for a few years now. I've got it in me.

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