Sex Education in schools

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
Mrs Slider
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby Mrs Slider » 02 Mar 2017, 12:14

We have a bigger problem in society in that boys/men won't listen to women and it makes me sad that we need to throw our hands in the air and recruit men (who have been gender socialised) to help us educate fertile young minds.

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The Great Defector
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby The Great Defector » 02 Mar 2017, 12:32

What kind of feminism is being taught though? There are feminists that disagree with other feminists quite strongly about certain aspects, so how does a education minister decide which is the best or correct kind?
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby Mrs Slider » 02 Mar 2017, 12:36

The Great Defector wrote:What kind of feminism is being taught though? There are feminists that disagree with other feminists quite strongly about certain aspects, so how does a education minister decide which is the best or correct kind?


Yes, one has to wonder.

I suspect the kind that is most attractive to the agenda of the men who are 'teaching' it.

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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby The Great Defector » 02 Mar 2017, 12:43

Mrs Slider wrote:
The Great Defector wrote:What kind of feminism is being taught though? There are feminists that disagree with other feminists quite strongly about certain aspects, so how does a education minister decide which is the best or correct kind?


Yes, one has to wonder.

I suspect the kind that is most attractive to the agenda of the men who are 'teaching' it.


Ok, you've made your point over the past few pages.

I was asking in general, that's what I meant. So for example if we were to teach it and the minister of education was a woman, and she only allowed women to teach it in school, which version of feminism should be taught.
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby clive gash » 02 Mar 2017, 12:47

Queensberry rules.
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby The Great Defector » 02 Mar 2017, 12:49

clive gash wrote:Queensberry rules.


It feels like BCB could use them rules some times.
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby Toby » 02 Mar 2017, 12:54

Mrs Slider wrote:We have a bigger problem in society in that boys/men won't listen to women and it makes me sad that we need to throw our hands in the air and recruit men (who have been gender socialised) to help us educate fertile young minds.


I would point out that the discussion of feminism in these workshops is not particularly deep - certainly there isn't really anything approaching the difference between sex and gender - it's more to point out that it actually exists as a thing and that there is a disparity at play between the sexes in civic society. Part of the approach is to show advertising where (male) constructs of female identity are used to sell products and to make boys aware of these stereotyped identities and how they are used for example.

I get what you are saying entirely about the problems of having men "mansplaining" this subject, but there is an enormous element of pragmatism involved here. It is, in my view, better to make them actually aware of the paradigm itself and to suggest that there is this disparity at play all around us, rather than to shut it down completely because we are not inherently qualified to discuss the subject. That to me, is cutting one's nose off to spite one's face.

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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby martha » 02 Mar 2017, 12:58

Mrs Slider wrote:
I find that really depressing. It seems to me to be colluding with shaming. I've no idea why a library would have the word on its uniform. I'd have an employment tribunal on their arse.


Well maybe it's cultural like cunt in the UK or something.

Within the gay lesbian bisexual transgender queer, bdsm and poly communities here in the US slut is a word that has a positive, fun-filled meaning. I don't agree with conjecture online that it began with the publication of the ethical slut, because it was already a sex positive term within the community before that book was published in 1997 (I was a safe sex slut in 1994-1996) but certainly the publication of that work has popularized and reshaped slut as a word in popular usage here in the USA. It's a word that has been reclaimed and is affirming and positive within sex positive culture in the US, especially the Bay Area.

The ethical slut defines slut as "a person of any gender who has the courage to lead life according to the radical proposition that sex is nice and pleasure is good for you."

Me personally, I see the word as synonymous with stud. It just means someone who likes to get laid and has plenty of experience fucking.
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby Fonz » 02 Mar 2017, 13:25

Mrs Slider wrote:
Fonz wrote:Maybe in an ideal world...

But 'Feminism' is only one part of the 'curriculum'.

Besides, are we saying that only Jews can go and educate about the Holocaust, or descendants of slaves can be the only people allowed to talk about slavery?

If we're being objective, and teaching facts, why can't men teach about feminism?


If men won't listen to what women have to say about Feminism, and will only be receptive to education from men, then we're not addressing the root of the problem. And if the root isn't being addressed there is no point.

It is clearly not about teaching objective facts though is it. That much is very clear these days.



I thought they were teaching schoolchildren.

My bad.
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby kath » 02 Mar 2017, 16:04

Fonz wrote:Writing off males' ability to engage in any of this stuff from (young) school-age seems pretty negative.


with all due respect to other feminist views, i agree with this.

my definition of feminism is not one that writes off men's contributions to a discussion on many of the subjects listed in this thread~~even writes off men's ability to do so at all~~or excludes them from talking about such complex topics in a healthy way, as though the only thing men can or should ever do is put the condom on the banana, spank that monkey and shut the fucque up otherwise.

exclusion and reductionism have never worked for me, coming from men or women. it involves the same fallacy. some kind of version of "men are just programmed robots and women are free thinkers" is not my brand of logic or feminism.

that's just me, though. consider it another female perspective.

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The Great Defector
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby The Great Defector » 02 Mar 2017, 16:35

I thought this was a bit of a contradiction

Feminism rejects gender, because it is a socially constructed model of stereotypes, pertaining to masculine/feminine,


Yet it's a bit of a stereotype to say men can't discusses feminism and it's not oppression if they're trying to enlighten other males.

I was going to post this, but I simply don't know enough about feminism so this could look like me trying to take the piss when I'm not.
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby sloopjohnc » 02 Mar 2017, 16:44

Re: the term slut and stud, I think it means different things to different people, obviously, like the N word or "queer," depending on who you're using it with. What may be owning a word for some groups can be used as a pejorative by others. Duh.

I will use the community I live in re: to feminism. Large Hispanic, Asian, Middle Eastern populations (45 different languages spoken within school district) with different levels of patriarchism within cultures.

For example, the Hispanic population has a different view or patriarchy and matriarchy compared to the east Asian and Afghani populations. Strangely enough, in the Afghani community, it is bad for boys to strive above their fathers so the girls have more opportunity to go to college because their expectations aren't as acute. That's just one. In the Hispanic population, women are very secondary to men in a variety of ways. Of course, all these views change as families get farther away from first generation immigration.

My point is that I think we look at the teaching of feminism, for example, in a vacuum of sorts. There are lots of equality issues that could be taught in school that would directly contradict what's going on at home - much like the teaching of science and evolution in the Bible Belt might.

I think equality is very much an issue that should be taught in a sex ed class, but it's tricky. But then I come from a background where my wife and I were very much equals and divvied up household, parenting and work. My daughter also saw an extended family where my wife's side had very strong female presences - strong grandmother who was a professional, an aunts whose an attorney, owns a PR agency, and their mom made more than their dad for a large portion of our careers.

Does sexism exist in my ex's an our relationship? Sure, it does, but my daughter also saw a dad who did the grocery shopping, did the laundry for the family and cleaned the house -simply because I'm not a good sitter arounder. My wife cooked, but simply because the kids knew I could only barbecue and microwave.

Why is Sloop focusing on household stuff and cooking? I do it because daily stuff like this can have huge ramifications in the way female and male kids view mens' and womens' roles in their own household and extend those views to the larger world. Kids don't miss a trick and they also see how parents view each other and their respective roles in the home and out into the world.

This goes into teaching sex ed with sexuality and equality as part of that curriculum and how it might mesh with what they see at home, what their taught and what happens in the larger world. Like I wrote, nothing happens in a vacuum. If you're black and taught about equal opportunity, but two of your uncles are in prison, your mom and dad have shitty jobs, and you get the stink eye every time you walk into a store, you might not be as open to a lesson that "anyone can be President," in that context. In that instance, that's why Michelle and Barack Obama were so important to America. I also think Michelle Obama and the President did a lot for equality in the way they presented their relationship. Personally, I had the feeling that Barack Obama ran and got elected President in that family because he chose to and not because she wasn't also qualified. It was up to choice.
Last edited by sloopjohnc on 02 Mar 2017, 16:49, edited 2 times in total.
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Mrs Slider
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby Mrs Slider » 02 Mar 2017, 16:48

Fonz wrote:I thought they were teaching schoolchildren.

My bad.


No, mine. You are quite correct. Although I did think it was boys? I meant males I suppose.

I'm not trying to be deliberately obstructive, it's just that it's so infuriating to hear that even at a young age, male children are not responding to discourse from and with females. I guess any oppressed class would feel similarly fucked off.

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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby Mrs Slider » 02 Mar 2017, 16:50

The Great Defector wrote:I thought this was a bit of a contradiction

Feminism rejects gender, because it is a socially constructed model of stereotypes, pertaining to masculine/feminine,


Yet it's a bit of a stereotype to say men can't discusses feminism and it's not oppression if they're trying to enlighten other males.

I was going to post this, but I simply don't know enough about feminism so this could look like me trying to take the piss when I'm not.


So does that make you feel like you're conforming to that stereotype and therefore maybe you could learn a bit more and have an informed discussion?

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The Great Defector
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby The Great Defector » 02 Mar 2017, 16:53

Mrs Slider wrote:
So does that make you feel like you're conforming to that stereotype and therefore maybe you could learn a bit more and have an informed discussion?


That I know next to little about feminism? Yeah it is. I wouldn't say I'm conforming, rather I'm naively ignorant of it. I could definitely learn more about feminism and I think like most subjects, it should start at home.
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby The Great Defector » 02 Mar 2017, 16:54

Mrs Slider wrote:
So does that make you feel like you're conforming to that stereotype and therefore maybe you could learn a bit more and have an informed discussion?


That I know next to little about feminism? Yeah it is. I wouldn't say I'm conforming, rather I'm naively ignorant of it. I could definitely learn more about feminism, but it doesn't make me a bad person or male. I think like most subjects, it should start at home.
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby Mrs Slider » 02 Mar 2017, 16:57

kath wrote:
Fonz wrote:Writing off males' ability to engage in any of this stuff from (young) school-age seems pretty negative.


with all due respect to other feminist views, i agree with this.

my definition of feminism is not one that writes off men's contributions to a discussion on many of the subjects listed in this thread~~even writes off men's ability to do so at all~~or excludes them from talking about such complex topics in a healthy way, as though the only thing men can or should ever do is put the condom on the banana, spank that monkey and shut the fucque up otherwise.

exclusion and reductionism have never worked for me, coming from men or women. it involves the same fallacy. some kind of version of "men are just programmed robots and women are free thinkers" is not my brand of logic or feminism.

that's just me, though. consider it another female perspective.


The boys, as indicated, have already excluded the women who have attempted discourse. There is nothing a man can teach about Feminism that a woman can't - if we are talking about responses and exclusion, then it's the very definition of tragic irony.

Are the men going to discuss intersectional, liberal or radical Feminism? I, as a mother, would want to know. I would not be happy with one of those being taught as objective, for instance, to my son. And that happens to be the one that appeals most to men, naturally. I also would not want any careless conflating of sex and gender, which is rife these days.

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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby Mrs Slider » 02 Mar 2017, 17:03

The Great Defector wrote:
Mrs Slider wrote:
So does that make you feel like you're conforming to that stereotype and therefore maybe you could learn a bit more and have an informed discussion?


That I know next to little about feminism? Yeah it is. I wouldn't say I'm conforming, rather I'm naively ignorant of it. I could definitely learn more about feminism, but it doesn't make me a bad person or male. I think like most subjects, it should start at home.


I think it should start with women.

I don't think it makes you a bad person, but it is indicative of being male: you've never had a need to educate yourself. I'm not finger pointing; I've never had a need to educate myself about racial oppression, for instance.

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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby Mrs Slider » 02 Mar 2017, 17:08

martha wrote:The ethical slut defines slut as "a person of any gender who has the courage to lead life according to the radical proposition that sex is nice and pleasure is good for you."


That's interesting.

What do you mean by gender? How is enjoying sex and pleasure radical and courageous for men?

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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby K » 02 Mar 2017, 17:12

Mrs Slider wrote:
martha wrote:The ethical slut defines slut as "a person of any gender who has the courage to lead life according to the radical proposition that sex is nice and pleasure is good for you."


That's interesting.

What do you mean by gender? How is enjoying sex and pleasure radical and courageous for men?

I don't know about radical or courageous but it sure is nice!
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