Sex Education in schools

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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toomanyhatz
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby toomanyhatz » 03 Mar 2017, 22:58

K wrote:I'm no expert so I always fall back on
The Y chromosome is one of two sex chromosomes (allosomes) in mammals, including humans, and many other animals. The other is the X chromosome. Y is the sex-determining chromosome in many species, since it is the presence or absence of Y that determines the male or female sex of offspring produced in sexual reproduction. In mammals, the Y chromosome contains the gene SRY, which triggers testis development.

I work with a trans woman. She is very nice, we got on when she was a man and now... but still in the back of my mind I keep thinking about the chromosomes. And I don't truly understand.
Does that make me bad? Like Jimbo bad?


Do you treat/refer to her as a woman? Does it trouble you to do so when the biological facts as you understand them contradict that?

I know you're not being completely serious, but I would like to get as far away as possible from the idea that having a thought makes one good or bad. Actions are of course a different story...
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby K » 03 Mar 2017, 23:07

I treat her as a woman in so much as I use her female name. I treat men and women the same.
I suppose, picking up on Betty's point, a man who identifies as a woman is immediately allowed to use facilities like the women's toilet and whilst I am absolutely sure this is not being abused, I'm not so sure if anyone was (or should have been) consulted.
It's hard. I spoke prior to him being open about this and I know how difficult it was.
I'm thinking I'm agreeing with Betty.
Last edited by K on 03 Mar 2017, 23:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby K » 03 Mar 2017, 23:09

toomanyhatz wrote:Does it trouble you to do so when the biological facts as you understand them contradict that?

It doesn't trouble me. But it's still a fact. She is a woman with a penis and a Y chromosome whatever that means
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby toomanyhatz » 03 Mar 2017, 23:14

Oh, I should also add that, also within my experience is a friend's child - who is now 6 or 7, I think - was born a boy and is living as a girl. While it's fairly easy and, in my opinion, harmless to accommodate that at that age, statistics show that when gender dysphora (I'll continue to call it that for now even if it might not be totally satisfying or accurate as it's the best I can do for now) shows up that early, it often disappears by adulthood. My friend's attitude is that she should be free to live as she feels, whereas my feelings (which I have kept to myself and not expressed to him) are that perhaps he shouldn't be so quick to accommodate, and might at least attempt to say "actually, you're a boy, but if you want to PRETEND to be a girl, go right ahead. Just know that you might change your mind later. Either way I love you."

And no, I don't think that makes me a bad person. But I would find no advantage in telling him how to raise his child.
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby K » 03 Mar 2017, 23:20

And I teach at an all girls school with at least two pupils who are living as boys.
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby toomanyhatz » 03 Mar 2017, 23:24

K wrote:I'm thinking I'm agreeing with Betty.


Do you agree with this part?

Mrs Slider wrote:We are ignoring facts and statistics and biological truths to pander to a tiny majority of men who demand we capitulate to brainwashing and their privilege.


Or are there situations - such as the ones that we express - where it is better to accommodate someone's "feelings" as long as they don't cause harm to others?
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby toomanyhatz » 03 Mar 2017, 23:26

And by the way, I don't consider those numbers - while agreeing that they're a minority - to be at all tiny. I'd say their numbers are growing, and are certainly large enough to warrant consideration and discussion. And those numbers will grow as the conversation becomes more open.
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby neville harp » 03 Mar 2017, 23:28

All changes in society like this will have its battle zones, that should have been obvious (and planned for) from the start. In this state of flux Trans people should be provided with "third" (or more) space* and scrutinised in the workplace as much as any other, with new employment laws and contracts that reflect the specific individual. The fights for civil rights and equality are seemingly eternal, join in.

* how about letting them share the disabled lavs, well, if there isn't a copulating couple in there. JK
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby K » 03 Mar 2017, 23:28

Well (and I'm off to bed now so I'm not ignoring you after this) I think you could argue that at least one of Betty's examples was leading to some form of harm.
Me. I do accommodate the feelings of the trans woman I work with and the trans boys at my school. It is a fact the she looks like a man dressed up as a woman, but I don't think that in itself leads to any harm.
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby kath » 04 Mar 2017, 00:07

i dunno.

i may have my differing calls on the chromosomal argument (and i most defintely do). i may disagree with other assumptions in this thread about whether a sex ed class for kids is the same thing as a seminar on feminism... or whether men are able to add vital and valuable discussions to the subjects involved, etc.

but the truth is, at the core of it all, i sympathize with mrs slider and her fears. she's upset and afraid. i won't extrapolate to make this some kinda trans-folk-are-all-evil or anything, as i think that's bunk, but i do indeed sympathize.

may not be worth much, but there it is.

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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby Nick » 04 Mar 2017, 02:56

kath wrote:i dunno.

i may have my differing calls on the chromosomal argument (and i most defintely do). i may disagree with other assumptions in this thread about whether a sex ed class for kids is the same thing as a seminar on feminism... or whether men are able to add vital and valuable discussions to the subjects involved, etc.

but the truth is, at the core of it all, i sympathize with mrs slider and her fears. she's upset and afraid. i won't extrapolate to make this some kinda trans-folk-are-all-evil or anything, as i think that's bunk, but i do indeed sympathize.

may not be worth much, but there it is.


Yep, I pretty much agree with this.

I think most, if not almost all, transsexuals are not sexual predators. I also think most men who would like to be women are not doing it in order to usurp womens' hard-earned/not-yet-fully-acquired status of equality, nor their history of oppression, struggle, injustice and so on. I think most transwomen are probably confused and troubled individuals who have through no fault of their own ended up profoundly uncomfortable in the skins they've found themselves living within, and are seeking to transition to an identity that they feel suits them.

I can also very much sympathise wth the concerns of women who worry about the possibility of predators using the pretext of becoming a transwoman in order to commit crimes against them. And of women feeling that the name of 'woman' shouldn't be appropriated from them.

Beyond that? I dunno.
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby toomanyhatz » 04 Mar 2017, 07:21

I agree that it is important to show compassion for as many people as possible, Mrs. Slider among them. I don't sense fear as much as anger and frustration, but any of these is understandable given the situations she describes.

It's a big subject. No one's emotions, desires or safety should be treated as unimportant.
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby Nick » 05 Mar 2017, 18:02

Good article here by Jenni Murray (it might be behind The Times's paywall, but you can sign up free to see a limited number of pieces each week). It's worth reading, very sensible.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/the-sunday-times-magazine/be-trans-be-proud-but-dont-call-yourself-a-real-woman-frtld7q5c
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby martha » 05 Mar 2017, 21:54

K wrote:I'm no expert so I always fall back on
The Y chromosome is one of two sex chromosomes (allosomes) in mammals, including humans, and many other animals. The other is the X chromosome. Y is the sex-determining chromosome in many species, since it is the presence or absence of Y that determines the male or female sex of offspring produced in sexual reproduction. In mammals, the Y chromosome contains the gene SRY, which triggers testis development.


What about the individuals with X Y chromosomes whose Y chromosomes are missing the SRY gene?
What about the individuals with X X chromosomes who have one X chromosome that HAS an SRY gene?
What about the individuals who have an X Y chromosomes but androgen insensitivity?
What about people with X X chromosomes but 5-alphareductase deficiency?
How about people who are XXY?
What about people who have only one X chromosome?

You're right. You're no expert.

All of this misses the larger point which is BIOLOGICAL SEX is not GENDER.
Gender is a social construct.
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby K » 05 Mar 2017, 22:35

martha wrote:
K wrote:I'm no expert so I always fall back on
The Y chromosome is one of two sex chromosomes (allosomes) in mammals, including humans, and many other animals. The other is the X chromosome. Y is the sex-determining chromosome in many species, since it is the presence or absence of Y that determines the male or female sex of offspring produced in sexual reproduction. In mammals, the Y chromosome contains the gene SRY, which triggers testis development.


What about the individuals with X Y chromosomes whose Y chromosomes are missing the SRY gene?
What about the individuals with X X chromosomes who have one X chromosome that HAS an SRY gene?
What about the individuals who have an X Y chromosomes but androgen insensitivity?
What about people with X X chromosomes but 5-alphareductase deficiency?
How about people who are XXY?
What about people who have only one X chromosome?

You're right. You're no expert.

All of this misses the larger point which is BIOLOGICAL SEX is not GENDER.
Gender is a social construct.

;)
What about them?
Ah, I see, you're referring to these groups who form a tiny percentage of the population as a counter to my point. Now if you could show me that they made up the vast majorityof transgender people I would concede immediately.
What about (if that's our game) these comments from 'grossly offensive' Germain Greer?
I’m not saying that people should not be allowed to go through that procedure, all I’m saying is that it doesn’t make them a woman.
I do understand that some people are born intersex and they deserve support in coming to terms with their gender but it’s not the same thing. A man who gets his d**k chopped off is actually inflicting an extraordinary act of violence on himself.
Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby PresMuffley » 05 Mar 2017, 23:35

How do you all feel about women MMA fighters? Progression or regression?
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room.

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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby martha » 06 Mar 2017, 00:17

K wrote: ;)
What about them?


Biological sex is not a binary. It is human beings and our society, not biology or science that wants to claim that human sex is a binary. Biology shows clearly that it isn't. That's what about them. Life is rich and complex not neat and black and white and binary.

And whether or not people with non-binary biological sex make up "the vast majorityof transgender people" or not is totally irrelevant. Because being trans isn't about biological sex. It's about GENDER which is a social construct not biological sex which again, isn't a binary.

Biological sex is a spectrum. Gender is a construct.

K wrote:What about (if that's our game) these comments from 'grossly offensive' Germain Greer?
I’m not saying that people should not be allowed to go through that procedure, all I’m saying is that it doesn’t make them a woman.
I do understand that some people are born intersex and they deserve support in coming to terms with their gender but it’s not the same thing. A man who gets his d**k chopped off is actually inflicting an extraordinary act of violence on himself.


Yep. They're offensive.
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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby martha » 06 Mar 2017, 00:28

K wrote:I work with a trans woman. She is very nice, we got on when she was a man and now (before she transitioned as well)... but still in the back of my mind I keep thinking about the chromosomes (irrelevant factors that have nothing to do with her gender).And I don't truly understand.
Does that make me bad? Like Jimbo bad?


It makes you confused and shows that you are fundamentally misunderstanding gender and sex,

For transgender people, the sex they were assigned by the doctor at their birth and their own internal gender identity do not match. That's all it is. No need to worry over chromosomes.
--m.

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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby kath » 06 Mar 2017, 03:10

here's my problem with the chromosomal binary argument:

i see it as fundamental hypocrisy in the way it's wielded. we could call it two wrongs that don't make things right.

the argument tries to use genetics to say that men will be men and women will be women. but do notice that there is a major tilt going on here. somehow, men are merely a function of their chromosomes. a function of their biological sex. they can't escape it. it always defines them, the inferior, primordial, dick-dominated bastards. it must always out. however, women (such as some enlightened feminists like greer) rise above all that. *they* are not merely functions of their chromosomes or their biology, are they? who would dare say that in this day and age? and how dare men try to infringe on such womanhood by stepping outside of their genetic cubicle in any way.

i've heard that before, just from the other side. don't get me wrong. i spent much of my dissertation-that-would-never-be on witch burnings in history, for example. but the men will be men and women will be women line is the same biased tilt of superiority the patriarchy has used for eons, along with all the how dare theys.

i think it is the same horsecrap when feminists try to use it. you don't fix an old, fucqued up model by just flipping it over and calling the same biased thinking justified. it is especially suspect when it's a strategy meant to wipe away any validity or respect for trans people. or anyone else who isn't defined by those strict genetic boundaries. which... um.... would also include women who rise above those boundaries, right?

as a logical argument, i would call that *poof*.

p.s. nick, i'm still having major connex problems here. i got through the carol example of the article before the times kept timing out. i agree the author sounds reasonable. as far as i got, i do think using an example of a trans who could be encapsulated essentially with "whatever will i wear??" might be a tad unfair, but i couldn't read it all. i will revisit. regardless, i am so glad to see you here! longgg time.
Last edited by kath on 06 Mar 2017, 09:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sex Education in schools

Postby toomanyhatz » 06 Mar 2017, 08:25

Nick wrote:Good article here by Jenni Murray (it might be behind The Times's paywall, but you can sign up free to see a limited number of pieces each week). It's worth reading, very sensible.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/the-sunday-times-magazine/be-trans-be-proud-but-dont-call-yourself-a-real-woman-frtld7q5c


That is an interesting, and I think, even-handed, article. The comments are instructive too.

It's a battleground any way you look at it. I'm for whatever is most helpful to the most people. Even people laboring under a delusion, if that's what it is, deserve to be treated with compassion.
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