With which "right wing" views do you agree?

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Jimbo
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With which "right wing" views do you agree?

Postby Jimbo » 17 Feb 2017, 14:56

Maybe its the times or maybe it is my advancing age but I am less tolerant and less afraid to make my views known than I used to be. But recently I have been listening to more varied political podcasts and there is a meme going around like with podcaster Dave Rubin that says I should listen to all sides because I never know from where good ideas may come.

A bit of advice I heard long before Dave Rubin was from Ronald Reagan who said something in a speech that has always impressed me and that is, if you don't like where you are you can always "vote with your feet." And I have been moving around ever since. I guess a more leftish response would be instead of moving to get politically active. That's too hard. I'm just moving.
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Re: With which "right wing" views do you agree?

Postby Toby » 17 Feb 2017, 15:17

Scruton, as usual, is very articulate on the subject of being right wing.

Even if you are not in agreement with these views, he is always well worth a read.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... nservative

Thinking is an unusual and precarious exercise for Conservatives.

This is not because they are more stupid than their socialist or liberal rivals, although John Stuart Mill famously declared them to be so. It is because they believe that good government is not grounded in abstract ideas but in concrete situations, and that concrete situations are hard to grasp. Abstract ideas like equality and liberty have a spurious transparency, and can be used to derive pleasing theorems in the manner of Jean-Jacques Rousseau or John Rawls. But applying them raises the question: to what or to whom? Which group of people is to be made more equal, and who is to be made more free?

Those are not questions to be answered in the abstract. They are questions of identity: who we are, and why we are entitled to use that very pronoun – “we” – to describe us.

For Conservatives, all disputes over law, liberty and justice are addressed to a historic and existing community. The root of politics, they believe, is attachment – the motive in human beings that binds them to the place, the customs, the history and the people who are theirs. When socialists promise a more equal society they are talking about us; when liberals offer to expand the list of human rights, they mean the rights that we enjoy.

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Re: With which "right wing" views do you agree?

Postby K » 17 Feb 2017, 15:27

Which group of people is to be made more equal

All people are to be made more equal. That's the point of equality. you can't aim for equality if you exclude a group from it.
and who is to be made more free?

How about people in our society who are denied freedoms?


I think what Scruton means is that concrete situations are hard to grasp if they have a perceived negative impact of the status quo. To me, the root of conservative politics is preservation, but not preservation rooted in a love of tradition (although that's a handy guise) but a preservation rooted in mistrust. "If we prevaricate about who should be made "more free" then perhaps we'll retain the advantage of our freedoms."
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Re: With which "right wing" views do you agree?

Postby Jimbo » 17 Feb 2017, 15:45

I got from the bit above that equality and liberty and human rights is airy-fairy horse shit. Never has any nation been truly free. It simply isn't a thing! So lets stick with the tried and true imperfect system that's gotten us to the 21st century in pretty good shape.
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Re: With which "right wing" views do you agree?

Postby K » 17 Feb 2017, 15:53

I've just read the article you posted,Toby. I was struck by this bit, near the end
If we look at the big issues facing us today – the EU, mass immigration, the union, Islamic extremism, the environment – we will surely see that the Conservative view rightly identifies what is now at stake: namely the survival of our way of life.

Whose way of life? I mean, there's not even a single "way of life" in the UK, much less the west or the world. I suppose a true leftist view would be that what is at stake is society - individuals working together as groups to better life for everyone, no matter their differences, no matter their way of life. I'm being very simplistic, I know, because of course we need laws to prohibit certain actions that would damage individual freedom and society.
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Re: With which "right wing" views do you agree?

Postby Jimbo » 17 Feb 2017, 16:07

I was impressed once by an article by Rabbi Mayer Kahane. Kahane was assassinated but back in the day he was a US born Israeli orthodox Jewish politician who really hated the arabs and, well, his right wing views are famous. But this article was not about Israeli politics but about conversion to Judaism and his criticism of the conservative and reformed way of conversion. In a nutshell, the orthodox way is much more difficult than the other two branches. He said (speculated?) that the entire reason for the existence for the two less rigorous versions of Judaism were precisely because some rabbis some years back had a need, due to pregnancy perhaps, to quickly convert a future son or daughter in-law. But real conversion is hard and takes a great deal of study and practice. To shorten the time these desperate rabbis hobbled by the orthodox rules went around the rules created these new branches of Judaism which allowed for quickie conversions. FYI, many orthodox, and in Israel still, I think, do not recognize conservative and reformed Judaism. Kahane hated reformed Jews more than the arabs.

I like the orthodox way, not that i practice it but I respect those who do. They're like ninja masters, always studying, always trying to learn more, really deep diggers into the minutia of Judaism and the philosophical questions that arise.
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Re: With which "right wing" views do you agree?

Postby Rayge » 17 Feb 2017, 18:23

None
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Re: With which "right wing" views do you agree?

Postby Moleskin » 17 Feb 2017, 19:27

Scruton is an ignorant arse. Conservatism is a philosophy dedicated to the preservation of things as they are, so that those who benefit from the status quo are not disturbed in their selfish enjoyment of it. Conservatism is at root, "I'm alright jack, the rest of you can go get fucked".
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Re: With which "right wing" views do you agree?

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 17 Feb 2017, 19:50

I''m not sure that liberalism and conservatism mean anything in today's parlance.

In the general philosophical form we were brought up with, I generally think conservatism offers an important counterbalance against the excesses of liberalism. The notion of a too-large government bureaucracy swallowing our freedoms whole isn't completely without basis.
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Toby
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Re: With which "right wing" views do you agree?

Postby Toby » 17 Feb 2017, 20:00

Moleskin wrote:Scruton is an ignorant arse. Conservatism is a philosophy dedicated to the preservation of things as they are, so that those who benefit from the status quo are not disturbed in their selfish enjoyment of it. Conservatism is at root, "I'm alright jack, the rest of you can go get fucked".


A dreadfully simplistic way of looking at things if I'm honest Simon. Scruton paraphrases Burke with the notion of "change through reform" and in the main, I think he's right. It is the speed and rigour at which things are looked at for reform which are important - it is often that we advance too quickly (and sometimes without doubt too slowly) in trying to change them and thus suffer from policies that do not take into consideration all the consequences. There is no doubt that administrations of all hues do this though.

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Re: With which "right wing" views do you agree?

Postby K » 18 Feb 2017, 00:08

Toby wrote:
Moleskin wrote:Scruton is an ignorant arse. Conservatism is a philosophy dedicated to the preservation of things as they are, so that those who benefit from the status quo are not disturbed in their selfish enjoyment of it. Conservatism is at root, "I'm alright jack, the rest of you can go get fucked".


A dreadfully simplistic way of looking at things if I'm honest Simon. Scruton paraphrases Burke with the notion of "change through reform" and in the main, I think he's right. It is the speed and rigour at which things are looked at for reform which are important - it is often that we advance too quickly (and sometimes without doubt too slowly) in trying to change them and thus suffer from policies that do not take into consideration all the consequences. There is no doubt that administrations of all hues do this though.

I would agree that the major failing of all parties is trying to advance too quickly. Education has been suffering because of Gove for this reason. But the major raison d'etre of conservatism is slowing down reform.
Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
I assume this is one of Gash's 'jests'

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Re: With which "right wing" views do you agree?

Postby Snarfyguy » 18 Feb 2017, 00:34

Elimination of all environmental and commercial regulation
Elimination of the entire public sphere via privatization
Elimination of all entitlements
Elimination of taxes

Have I forgotten anything?

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Re: With which "right wing" views do you agree?

Postby toomanyhatz » 18 Feb 2017, 00:36

I can agree with almost anyone's view about almost anything if they're sincerely held and don't involve misapprehensions about how other people would be affected by having them implemented. It's so much more important to me that you treat others decently than it is that you agree with me.
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Re: With which "right wing" views do you agree?

Postby Loki » 22 Feb 2017, 01:43

I'm a lefty, but one of Trump's edicts I have no problem with - expelling illegal criminals. How they got in in the first place should be closely examined, and keeping them out in future.....


Hey, even NON-illegal criminals, the ones who are likely to re-offend - ship them out to Australia! Yeah!
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Re: With which "right wing" views do you agree?

Postby Count Machuki » 22 Feb 2017, 16:12

Rayge wrote:None


Good man. I came here to write the same thing.





Actually, if you corner me I'm OK with reducing estate tax drastically, but that's about it :oops:
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Re: With which "right wing" views do you agree?

Postby Count Machuki » 22 Feb 2017, 16:13

Loki wrote:I'm a lefty, but one of Trump's edicts I have no problem with - expelling illegal criminals. How they got in in the first place should be closely examined, and keeping them out in future.....


Hey, even NON-illegal criminals, the ones who are likely to re-offend - ship them out to Australia! Yeah!


Oh, that's a sticky one. They come to a house looking for an undocumented criminal, he's moved on, but the family that overstayed their visa a decade ago happens to live there...you out. Gone. Deported because you got caught up.
That's NOT OK
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Then it follows that ∀ k ∈ K: K ∈ U ⇒ k ∉ D

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Re: With which "right wing" views do you agree?

Postby Count Machuki » 22 Feb 2017, 16:15

Loki wrote:
Hey, even NON-illegal criminals, the ones who are likely to re-offend - ship them out to Australia! Yeah!



OOof.

Yeah, ICE can round up folks who they deem "a danger to society" or "likely to re-offend"

"That jaywalking is a reckless endangerment to society and you might do it again...YOU OUT!"
Let U be the set of all united sets, K be the set of the kids and D be the set of things divided.
Then it follows that ∀ k ∈ K: K ∈ U ⇒ k ∉ D

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Re: With which "right wing" views do you agree?

Postby Count Machuki » 22 Feb 2017, 16:15

Ah, sorry, Loki...I stay up to speed on immigration stuff.
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Then it follows that ∀ k ∈ K: K ∈ U ⇒ k ∉ D

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Re: With which "right wing" views do you agree?

Postby Goat Boy » 22 Feb 2017, 16:36

I'm sympathetic to the idea that change is a relatively slow, gradual process based on concessions and tolerance and that the sweeping changes the left wants are perhaps not desirable or indeed practical.

Does that make me a conservative with a small 'c'?
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Re: With which "right wing" views do you agree?

Postby Count Machuki » 22 Feb 2017, 16:37

Goat Boy wrote:I'm sympathetic to the idea that change is a relatively slow, gradual process based on concessions and tolerance and that the sweeping changes the left wants are perhaps not desirable or indeed practical.

Does that make me a conservative with a small 'c'?


fuck off fascist
Let U be the set of all united sets, K be the set of the kids and D be the set of things divided.
Then it follows that ∀ k ∈ K: K ∈ U ⇒ k ∉ D


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