Former President Donald J. Trump

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Rorschach
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Rorschach » 19 Jan 2021, 15:29

Dr. Baron wrote:Unfortunately, the pardon power gets a bad rap due to the inevitable controversial pardons that invariably come at the end of every term. A smart President could and should use the pardon power to correct injustices, take on structural issues in criminal justice, and fix problems that are beyond the power or inclination of the court system.


I'm sure that's true and it's not going anywhere as it'd need a change to the constitution to stop it; but isn't it a bit of a recipe for corruption? A corrupt individual like Trump can encourage illegal behaviour from subordinates with the promise of a pardon if they get caught. A bit like a 10th century bishop promising to shrive a criminal if he gets rid of an enemy for him.
I'm somewhat surprised that it hasn't been used like this a lot more.
Apparently it's been traditional for pardons to go through a bureaucratic process before being signed off, but wouldn't it be better to make this mandatory? Maybe have independent bodies who are allowed to submit suggestions? I don't know, but the current system seems a bit medieval.
Bugger off.

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 19 Jan 2021, 15:36

There’s nothing illegal about getting paid to lobby for a pardon and there’s no evidence anyone has offered to pay Trump directly, which could be considered bribery.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 ... money.html
Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Dr. Baron
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Dr. Baron » 19 Jan 2021, 16:07

Jimbo wrote:
There’s nothing illegal about getting paid to lobby for a pardon and there’s no evidence anyone has offered to pay Trump directly, which could be considered bribery.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 ... money.html


I couldn't agree more ... I hope to make some money (and get some good things done) doing very similar work after I retire!
take5_d_shorterer wrote:If John Bonham simply didn't listen to enough Tommy Johnson or Blind Willie Mctell, that's his doing.

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Dr. Baron » 19 Jan 2021, 16:19

Rorschach wrote:
Dr. Baron wrote:Unfortunately, the pardon power gets a bad rap due to the inevitable controversial pardons that invariably come at the end of every term. A smart President could and should use the pardon power to correct injustices, take on structural issues in criminal justice, and fix problems that are beyond the power or inclination of the court system.


I'm sure that's true and it's not going anywhere as it'd need a change to the constitution to stop it; but isn't it a bit of a recipe for corruption? A corrupt individual like Trump can encourage illegal behaviour from subordinates with the promise of a pardon if they get caught. A bit like a 10th century bishop promising to shrive a criminal if he gets rid of an enemy for him.
I'm somewhat surprised that it hasn't been used like this a lot more.
Apparently it's been traditional for pardons to go through a bureaucratic process before being signed off, but wouldn't it be better to make this mandatory? Maybe have independent bodies who are allowed to submit suggestions? I don't know, but the current system seems a bit medieval.


The trouble is that, though the US Constitution/American concept of separation of powers is designed to limit the powers of different branches and actors, it also presumes good faith actors, and up until now, that's more or less been the case.

Presumably, a corrupt quid pro quo "deal" for a pardon would be subject to prosecution or impeachment. Failing that, the remedy is at the ballot box. But another view of it is that Donald Trump was elected President, and when the people elected him President, they did so knowing they were electing a venal, transactional guy would would enjoy exercising the pardon power in this manner . . . the people got what they chose.

The bureaucratic process has historically been necessary because traditionally, the President has been fully engaged with his duties and when that's the case, there's no time for the President himself to vet every decision he makes. Everything goes through a bureaucratic process! President Trump simply isn't engaged in his duties as President, doesn't trust the public servants who do the work on policy so his decisions are based on thorough vetting, and is too lazy and (probably) stupid to even bother thinking about the executive summaries he would get. And, because this is one of the few decisions he can make unencumbered by other considerations, it's something he relishes. Any requirement for additional process to mediate the President's decision process that came from Congress (or any other external force) would require a constitutional amendment since the whole point of the pardon power is that it belongs to the executive and is, in some regards, a check on the judiciary and the Congress. In that respect, it is a remnant of medieval days when the leader would have plenary power to make decisions, unencumbered by law or competing claims of others with co-equal powers. The problem in the past was that the process was driven by people from the same agencies that initially prosecuted the people seeking pardons.
take5_d_shorterer wrote:If John Bonham simply didn't listen to enough Tommy Johnson or Blind Willie Mctell, that's his doing.

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toomanyhatz
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby toomanyhatz » 19 Jan 2021, 18:46

Hmmm...it's been all about his personal gain for four years now - be it financially or ego. (Well, longer than that, to state the obvious, but more successfully with the position.)

Are there really people that think that's going to change in the 23rd hour?
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 19 Jan 2021, 19:54

I'm hoping he pardons the whistleblowers and journos who were prosecuted by Obama, i.e. Assange, Manning, Kirkerkau,
Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby toomanyhatz » 19 Jan 2021, 19:57

Hope springs eternal.

Hell of a guy to place your hope on, though. I believe I first said that he doesn't give a shit what you or I want in about 2009.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby soundchaser » 19 Jan 2021, 20:20

ONE MORE SLEEP!

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Minnie the Minx
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Minnie the Minx » 19 Jan 2021, 20:27

Indeed!

I’ve taken tomorrow off. At 12 (11 our time) I’m popping several corks which will bode well for the hangover thread.
You come at the Queen, you best not miss.

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Six String » 19 Jan 2021, 20:56

We’ll be joining you (with plenty of social distance).
This is not the year to think about what we don’t have.
It is the year we should be grateful for what we do have.

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Minnie the Minx » 19 Jan 2021, 21:00

Excellent! I was thinking of doing something in the front garden but it’s raining hard and will be tomorrow too. I know a lot of the hood is working from home and I’m sure there will be some lunchtime cork popping everywhere and probably some rain dancing after a couple of glasses!
You come at the Queen, you best not miss.

Dr Markus wrote:
Someone in your line of work usually as their own man cave aka the shed we're they can potter around fixing stuff or something don't they?


Flower wrote:I just did a google search.

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby John aka Josh » 20 Jan 2021, 00:03

Trump is expected to fly to Scotland next week.

There's a petition to change the name of Glasgow Prestwick Airport to Joe Biden International, should any one be interested in it. Some of the reasons for signing are interesting!

http://chng.it/2ZmF4V7sjm



Any ideas on how the road leading to Trump Turnberry Ailsa Golf Course, currently Maidens Road could be renamed?
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby souphound » 20 Jan 2021, 01:45

John aka Josh wrote:Trump is expected to fly to Scotland next week.

There's a petition to change the name of Glasgow Prestwick Airport to Joe Biden International, should any one be interested in it. Some of the reasons for signing are interesting!

http://chng.it/2ZmF4V7sjm



Any ideas on how the road leading to Trump Turnberry Ailsa Golf Course, currently Maidens Road could be renamed?


Maidens Beware Road?
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soundchaser
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby soundchaser » 20 Jan 2021, 06:00

John aka Josh wrote:Trump is expected to fly to Scotland next week.

There's a petition to change the name of Glasgow Prestwick Airport to Joe Biden International, should any one be interested in it. Some of the reasons for signing are interesting!

http://chng.it/2ZmF4V7sjm



Any ideas on how the road leading to Trump Turnberry Ailsa Golf Course, currently Maidens Road could be renamed?


Sore Loser Lane.

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby soundchaser » 20 Jan 2021, 06:07

Minnie the Minx wrote:Indeed!

I’ve taken tomorrow off. At 12 (11 our time) I’m popping several corks which will bode well for the hangover thread.


We shall be watching from Bournemouth in 55” HD quality, beer in hand.

And then it’ll be, “Cheers Everyone!”

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby toomanyhatz » 20 Jan 2021, 06:23

Footy wrote:
The Who / Jimi Hendrix Experience Saville Theatre, London Jan '67
. Got Jimi's autograph after the show and went on to see him several times that year


1959 1963 1965 1966 1974 1977 1978 1981 1988 2017* 2018 2020!! 2021?

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Charlie O. » 20 Jan 2021, 06:57

toomanyhatz wrote:Full pardons list:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-st ... cy-012021/

Phil Spector!?!









(joke - sorry)
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Rorschach » 20 Jan 2021, 08:56

Dr. Baron wrote:
The trouble is that, though the US Constitution/American concept of separation of powers is designed to limit the powers of different branches and actors, it also presumes good faith actors, and up until now, that's more or less been the case.


I can see that, but surely the whole reasoning behind the separation of powers is to avoid giving too much power to bad faith actors. Giving an individual, who already has executive power, judicial power seems to fly in the face of that.

Whatever, I guess it seemed like a good idea at the time but I do think it needs seriously looking at.
Bugger off.

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Rorschach
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Rorschach » 20 Jan 2021, 08:57

Charlie O. wrote:
toomanyhatz wrote:Full pardons list:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-st ... cy-012021/

Phil Spector!?!


I would have thought Roman Polanski was a shoe-in.
Bugger off.

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Positive Passion » 20 Jan 2021, 09:51

Rorschach wrote:
Dr. Baron wrote:
The trouble is that, though the US Constitution/American concept of separation of powers is designed to limit the powers of different branches and actors, it also presumes good faith actors, and up until now, that's more or less been the case.


I can see that, but surely the whole reasoning behind the separation of powers is to avoid giving too much power to bad faith actors. Giving an individual, who already has executive power, judicial power seems to fly in the face of that.

Whatever, I guess it seemed like a good idea at the time but I do think it needs seriously looking at.


I think the problem is that the Senate was also full of bad faith actors.