President Donald J. Trump

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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sneelock
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby sneelock » 10 Mar 2018, 01:15

because it's bad and we can't blame TRUMP (or, more importantly, the Russians)!
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby sneelock » 10 Mar 2018, 01:20

let's see how it goes. I mean it's good that the people being affected are speaking up - maybe those concerns will be addressed one way or the other. stranger things have happened.
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Davey the Fat Boy
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 10 Mar 2018, 01:23

toomanyhatz wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:But I’m not sure why Jimbo felt it belonged on a Trump thread.


Really? C'mon - you know exactly why!


Well...yeah.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 10 Mar 2018, 02:53

It's because the fecklessness, greed and untrustworthiness of the current Dems, the supposed good guys, allowed Trump to be elected. Criticizing them, holding their feet to the fire, hopefully will help them see what they need to do better next time around.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Snarfyguy » 10 Mar 2018, 03:04

Jimbo wrote:

Obama ripped by the right? :o Here he is ripped by the left for building his Presidential library on the south side of Chicago without a care for the effects of the gentrification, i.e., rising rents in the area, especially when some many residents are poor.

The greatest president of my lifetime (which, sadly, isn't really saying much), but no one's above criticism.

Rick Perlstein had a great article on this -- and on presidential libraries generally -- in The baffler: https://thebaffler.com/salvos/there-goe ... ighborhood
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 10 Mar 2018, 04:07

Jimbo wrote:It's because the fecklessness, greed and untrustworthiness of the current Dems, the supposed good guys, allowed Trump to be elected. Criticizing them, holding their feet to the fire, hopefully will help them see what they need to do better next time around.


Stronger words than you’ve ever used on Putin.

That’s why you are a figure of derision.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 10 Mar 2018, 04:22

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
Jimbo wrote:It's because the fecklessness, greed and untrustworthiness of the current Dems, the supposed good guys, allowed Trump to be elected. Criticizing them, holding their feet to the fire, hopefully will help them see what they need to do better next time around.


Stronger words than you’ve ever used on Putin.

That’s why you are a figure of derision.


Putin is/was not my President. Putin is not a member of the Democratic Party. How has Putin affected you, aside from all the hysterical nonsense you accept as true? Does Putin build American roads, fix American schools, do anything for America? Even if … blah blah blah, there is a civilized and thoughtful way to deal with Putin and that is called diplomacy.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 10 Mar 2018, 04:27

Putin interfered in our election, and more and more I am becoming convinced that he impacted the outcome and left us in the hands of a moron.

So yeah...I think he’s impacted me.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 10 Mar 2018, 04:52

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Putin interfered in our election, and more and more I am becoming convinced that he impacted the outcome and left us in the hands of a moron.

So yeah...I think he’s impacted me.


And this is why it is you who are worthy of derision, for your hysteria, for your lack of thoughtfulness, for your failure to see nuance, for failing to see how your own side let you down.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 10 Mar 2018, 05:26

That “your own side let you down” line may work in the echo chambers you frequent. But it is hysterical for you to use it and then talk about a “lack of nuance”.

See...here’s the thing: Whether Clinton ran a bad campaign or whether the DNC alienated the wrong people - that’s just running a losing campaign. Half of all campaigns lose. It isn’t an affront to anyone. But when a national election goes to the popular vote losing candidate by less than the population of a midwestern suburb - and Twitter has had to inform millions that they viewed propaganda from Russian bots (which doesn’t account for the larger number they haven’t definitively identified) - that’s a fucking problem.

That’s not hysteria. I’m cool as a cucumber. I get the difference between a losing campaign and a foreign influence campaign...and I know which one to be bothered by.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Snarfyguy » 10 Mar 2018, 06:06

Snarfyguy wrote:https://thebaffler.com/salvos/there-goes-the-neighborhood

Jimbo, treat yourself to a well written and thought-out essay that confirms your gripe (and mine) about the Obama/Library/Gentrification issue you posted on.
Jimbo wrote:Look, all I know is pretty much what I get from Robert Parry over at Consortium News.

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 10 Mar 2018, 08:58

Snarfyguy wrote:
Snarfyguy wrote:https://thebaffler.com/salvos/there-goes-the-neighborhood

Jimbo, treat yourself to a well written and thought-out essay that confirms your gripe (and mine) about the Obama/Library/Gentrification issue you posted on.


Very sleazy business which a good liberal would hope/assume the Obamas are above. But they ain't. They're as dirty as any crook. And they talk of Putin's palace like he's dirty. If it is true about Putin's ill gotten gains certainly any Obama fan has no grounds to throw stones.

Left out of Perlstein's article is how messed up the Clinton Library story is. Not sure why that is. My Jimbo sez because the author is overly-symathetic to HRC in this time of Trump. Needn't heap more dirt on her when she's already down. But if you care to see for yourself see http://charlesortel.com
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 10 Mar 2018, 14:56

I’m fascinated by the small things that outrage you vs. the giant things you play apologist for.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby LeBaron » 10 Mar 2018, 15:14

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:I’m fascinated by the small things that outrage you vs. the giant things you play apologist for.


:lol:

Anyway, back to Trump.

Whatta week, eh?
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby John aka Josh » 10 Mar 2018, 20:23

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Thought more people would see this if I post it in this thread.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 11 Mar 2018, 02:55

The opinions of this poster are subjective. That’s how opinions work.

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 12 Mar 2018, 15:45

It ain't about hacking r democracy. it's all about oil and that kind of shit. The quotes below come from an actual US Army paper and lays out just what the fuck the US wants to do about Russia. Read the article for an analysis or just read the quotes and ask yourself if all this Russia bullshit is about, you know, what they are saying it is. I said it was an op to win the hearts and minds of dumb assed Americans to go along with Exxon and BP. Meanwhile, better dust off your bomb shelter and hunker down.

Army document: US strategy to ‘dethrone’ Putin for oil pipelines might provoke WW3

A study by the US Army’s Command and General Staff College Press of the Combined Arms Center at Fort Leavenworth reveals that US strategy toward Russia has been heavily motivated by the goal of dominating Central Asian oil and gas resources, and associated pipeline routes.


https://off-guardian.org/2018/03/11/arm ... ovoke-ww3/

Vast reserves of oil and natural gas in and around the Caspian Sea were the primary source of the US’s initial interest in the region. That interest could provide the foundation for stronger ties between the US and regional states, with the US providing protection to ensure regional stability and the political independence of the littoral countries. (p. 8)

… strengthen the political and economic independence of the countries of the region from possible resurgent Russian ambitions. But even before its completion, it had also marked the beginning of the new ‘Great Game’ with global and regional powers such as the US, China, and Russia vying for influence in the area. Once again the region became very attractive for global geopolitics, enhanced by the discoveries of natural resources in Afghanistan such as natural gas, oil, marble, gold, copper, chromite, etc.”

At the same time, Afghanistan’s significance stems from its geopolitical position as a potential transit route for oil and natural gas exports from Central Asia to the Arabian Sea. This potential includes the possible construction of oil and natural gas export pipelines through Afghanistan, which was under serious consideration in the mid-1990s. The idea has since been undermined by Afghanistan’s instability.

… safeguard US economic interests and continue to promote economic reform so that the five nations can be better embedded in the global economy.

But also, the region is awash in natural resources. Turkmenistan has the fourth-largest natural-gas reserves in the world. Kazakhstan has the second-largest oil reserves of the former Soviet Union, second only to Russia, and US and European international oil companies early on made major investments there that continue to this day. Uzbekistan is a major producer of uranium, as is Kazakhstan, and has large natural-gas reserves, as does, quite likely, Tajikistan. Both Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan hold significant gold deposits. In addition, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan have world-class hydropower potential, as demonstrated by the current casa-1000 project to deliver their summer-excess hydroelectricity across Afghanistan to electricity-starved Pakistan.

To add a bit more nuance, the economies of Central Asia are more than the sum of their natural resources and energy-generating potential. Kazakhstan’s early commitment to macro-economic reform has, 20 years later, created a financial-services hub for the region. Uzbekistan’s educated population of about 30 million has a real potential to provide entrepreneurial and innovative economic growth.” (pp. 28–29)

Russia is currently seeking to create security and economic organizations that could be used to rival the existing structures such as NATO and the World Bank. Russia, China, Iran, and other countries have undertaken these and other steps which are not in the national security interests of the United States.

It is obvious that Russia-China rapprochement presents a profound challenge to the United States. The realpolitik question for US policy makers would be how to prevent this historically unlikely alliance between the two major global and regional players.

Recently declassified Soviet papers, articles, and meeting minutes indicate that the Soviet leadership had no intention of invading Europe.

Therefore, the Soviets developed and tested a nuclear device in 1949 in order to counter the West’s advantage.

Simply put, Russian leaders want to limit the expansion and influence of NATO, create a buffer between Russia and NATO, re-establish its influence in former Soviet states, and return to being a regional and global power.

Considering that NATO was created to counter the expansion of the Soviet Union, it is not surprising that the Kremlin views expansion as a threat. Every time a former Soviet state is incorporated into NATO, the buffer shrinks. Without that physical buffer, Western military forces move closer to Moscow, eliminating the Kremlin’s ability to trade space for time. Similarly, missile defense erodes the Kremlin’s most powerful strategic and political weapons, its nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles. From the Kremlin’s perspective, the West is willing to attack any ‘disruptive’ country that lacks nuclear capability in order to ‘force its political will’ on international and regional affairs. Therefore, the Russian leadership views its nuclear weapons as its most important political tool because they would have limited to no ability to affect regional and international affairs without them.

Without dialogue, the risk of another Cold War and possible nuclear confrontation is high.

… an economically open and growing FSU (former Soviet Union) would likely have significant trade and investment benefits for the United States.

With the 2018 Russian presidential elections, watch for a fourth-term bid by Putin, then look for possible changes to allow more. How to start thinking about it — be deviant and do not forget the old ways. The key is creating a strategy of one’s own, not an ‘anything but’ strategy as Russia appears to have. It will be reactive to a degree, but should focus on putting Putin off balance, without becoming too defensive… The US and the West need to determine what they want Russia to look like, how they want it to behave and if they care if Vladimir Putin is president.” (p. 106)

the US and the West wrestle with what they want Russia to look like, they would be well served to pursue a tiered strategy of appeasement, persuasion, and deterrence without seeking to escalate already bloody friction points.

Another possible strategy option for the US would be to seek to dethrone Putin, in hopes of a more cooperative successor. Rather than Iraq-like military ousting, the US and the West could drive a cohesive information, economic and diplomatic campaign helping Putin’s supporters choose a new leader… This strategy seems to have fits of starts and stops by the US and several others in the West. Putin is a master at navigating these kinds of threats, and almost seems to invite them, knowing this is a game he excels at. An anti-Putin campaign probably isn’t what the US and the West really want. Rather, it is to minimize new aggression and mitigate behaviors to date.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 12 Mar 2018, 15:49

You don’t see how this context actually strengthens the likelihood that Putin would attempt a cyber campaign against us?
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 12 Mar 2018, 16:02

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:You don’t see how this context actually strengthens the likelihood that Putin would attempt a cyber campaign against us?



Again, even if … governments run cyber shit against one another all the time. The US is the biggest hacker, thats for sure. But even if… by hyping up a piddly cyber attack as a prelude for a war - sanctions are an act of war - not only are we are provoking Putin, we are preparing - gas lighting - the US people to expect a war. Sadaam Hussein, Osama Bin Ladin, Assad and on and on - all paper tigers. All to get the resources. You know we could do/have done? The same as we do everyday. If you want Russia's oil, fucking buy it - with money. But nooooo. :roll:
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 12 Mar 2018, 16:12

Governments may indeed “run cyber shit against one another all the time”. But the rise of social networking has changed the context and rendered it a greater threat. What we just endured was unprecedented - and it needs to be addressed. Your characterizing it as “piddly” does not conform with the reality as we lived it, nor as the mounting evidence suggests.

I don’t really understand the logic that views sanctions as an act of war while simultaneously writing off cyber-attacks on our elections as unworthy of concern.
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