President Donald J. Trump

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Copehead
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Copehead » 07 Mar 2018, 22:54

Hitler: I wish to exterminate the Jewish race
Dr Markus: Hold on there big man sit down and have a pint of plain and let's talk about this.
Hitler: Nope
*wanders off to kill Jews*
Dr Markus: ............

Debating with fascists is pointless as they are not interested in debate, trying to debate with fascism simply legitimizes their ideas as worthy of debate. Fascism is, at a base, a street movement built on violence, always has been always will be; attempts to intellectualise it and put in suits always fail and it goes back to violence, the way to stop their violence hurting and killing innocent people is, sadly, meeting that violence with violence, make it painful and dispiriting being a fascist and knowing your are the minority and you will be physically challenged and beaten if you try and take the streets.

That is the lesson of history that is what anti-fascists do. To be fair you have a great experience of violence in Ireland but very little experience of street fascism, your idea that these people can be debated off the streets is well meaning but naïve.

Nobhead crypto-fascists like Rees-Mogg can be debated, the guys who stick burning rags through the doors of Bangladeshi immigrants not so much.

It is never the State or the police who shut down street fascism it has always been anti-fascist movements from Cable Street to Charlottesville.

That isn't something to celebrate but I am glad there are people out there still willing to meet street fascism head on because it is the alternative that is truly worrying.
And if you tolerate this then your children will be next

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Snarfyguy
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Snarfyguy » 07 Mar 2018, 22:55

I'm going to try to veer this thread back on course.

A round-up, some of it apparently straying rather deep into Jimbo territory:

Kushner asked Qatar for a loan for the $1.5 billion he owes at 666 Park. Qatar told him to pound sand. Kushner then orchestrated a blockade of Qatar, with help from the UAE and the Saudis. If true, that's a capital punishment offense.

Gates flipped, and now Manafort either has to flip or die in prison...which may be a better move than letting Putin kill him. Again, Manafort was a) Trump's campaign chair b) who lived in Trump Tower, and c) installed Pence as VP.

Michael Cohen paid off the porn star with $130k of his own money, which no one believes at all. That's a campaign finance violation, but he's got other legal problems...frankly, too many for me to recall. He's fucked. Says who? Me.

Sam Nunberg's performance art masterpiece yesterday was done for reasons I cannot fathom, but the big takeaway is that Mueller has Roger Stone in his sights. Which makes sense b/c Stone was clearly in contact w/Guccifer and knew about the Podesta leak in advance.

Ivanka is finally under investigation, because she is the lipstick [o]n the pig that is the Trump Organization's criminal enterprise. Money laundering for the mob sounds like something from a movie, but it involves stuff like human trafficking, which is just bad in every way.

Hope Hicks met with...I can't even remember now...told the truth about the "white lies," got reamed out by 45*, and gave notice the next day. She is pretty, so the press gives her a pass like they do with Ivanka. Mueller won't. Obstruction, at a minimum.

Carter Page looks more and more like he was, in fact, a Russian agent all along, which explains why he goes on TV and acts insane. He doesn't give a fuck! He's either going to prison or Putin will whack him. Also, FWIW: Steele seems to have been right about him.

Mike Pence wants you to forget he was the transition chair during peak treason season & that Manafort picked him & that Gates was joined to him at the hip. Mueller has not! Pence lawyered up EARLY & knows to keep his idiot mouth shut.

There was a Giuliani sighting, at that panel of asshats last week! Good, he's in the country, where the feds can bust him. He had advance knowledge of the fake news Weiner laptop thing that turned the election. He knows he's going to prison. Hence the silence.

Rex Tillerson was installed at State by Putin, who vetoed the original choice of Mitt Romney. Read that sentence again. If true, FOR THIS ALONE, BOTH REX AND TRUMP DESERVE FIRING SQUAD.

Steve Mnuchin did something stupid but I can't remember what it is.

Carl Icahn, who used to specialize in hostile takeovers -- which is basically capitalism at its 20th century worst -- was told Trump would announce steel tariffs, and then he sold $30 million in stocks related to steel and got out. That's insider trading. Fuck you, Carl.

Wilbur Ross is also a fucking crook. Fuck you, Wilbur.

Kellyanne Conway was found to have violated the Hatch Act -- not once, not twice, but THRICE. WH says it doesn't give a shit, because they are all criminals.

Devin Nunes leaked stuff he should not have leaked to sway public opinion about Mueller and the Russia investigations. I'll say again: no one will serve more prison time than Loony Nunes.

Alex Jones something sexual harassment something beefcake something? Who cares, fuck that clown.

Junior has been quiet this week. Remember, six months or so ago he CONFESSED TO COORDINATION WITH RUSSIA and was on the cover of Time with the headline "Read-Handed."

Did I forgot anyone? I feel like I'm forgetting someone. Sessions, guilty of perjury? Hannity? Assange?

Oh, right, I remember now: the Belarusian escort in the Thai prison with tape of Trump/Russia collusion. If after ALL THIS, it takes HER to bring this down...I don't even know what to say, other than... [END]

PS NOW I remember: DONALD TRUMP HIRED A KNOWN TRAITOR AS HIS FUCKING NATSEC ADVISER AND GAVE HIM ALL THE EYES-ONLY SECRETS. Again, that alone should be enough.


https://twitter.com/gregolear/status/97 ... 234e67fa3c
Jimbo wrote:Look, all I know is pretty much what I get from Robert Parry over at Consortium News.

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Copehead » 07 Mar 2018, 22:58

Dr Markus wrote:
bobzilla77 wrote:Communists have also used violence to curtail speech and shut down events. So have monarchists, so have Republicans and Democrats. It's not limited to fascist leaders.

To answer what I think Markus is getting at, I think there are times when people have to put their backs against the gears and levers of the machine and make it stop. People who want to bring Hitler's ideas back to modern life need to be stopped. I have no interest in arguing them out of their moral position. I just want them stopped.



So you approve of violence like antifa does to achieve this? A yes or no answer please.


That would be a big yes from me.

You'd have as much luck debating an hungry tiger about whether eating you was a good idea as debating Fascists, they need to be physically driven from the streets. Ignoring that is ignoring history.

It is just a lesson that Ireland, and until now the USA, have not had to learn.
And if you tolerate this then your children will be next

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 07 Mar 2018, 23:37

When it comes to a sleazy Trump - Russia connection the onus is on Trump. That Trump is in hock to Russian financiers/mobsters is probably true. If Putin could leverage this to help Russia by, say, having the sanctions lifted, shouldn't be a surprise. To conflate this relationship to the point where we are on the brink of war with Russia is a crazy mistake. If the Russians "suggested" Tillerson over Romney and Trump acquiesced that's on Trump, not Russia. Again, if we want to get Trump and his cronies, by all means, go after his larcenous actions but the neo-conservtive establishment are taking advantage by pushing the Russia hacked our democracy bullshit - protesting way to much - in order to advance their agenda which is to keep selling arms and controlling the world's resources to help their financiers/mobsters who are not in Russia but on Wall Street.
Gadfly

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby bobzilla77 » 07 Mar 2018, 23:41

Dr Markus wrote:
bobzilla77 wrote:Communists have also used violence to curtail speech and shut down events. So have monarchists, so have Republicans and Democrats. It's not limited to fascist leaders.

To answer what I think Markus is getting at, I think there are times when people have to put their backs against the gears and levers of the machine and make it stop. People who want to bring Hitler's ideas back to modern life need to be stopped. I have no interest in arguing them out of their moral position. I just want them stopped.



So you approve of violence like antifa does to achieve this? A yes or no answer please.


I don't have a rundown of their recent activity so it's hard to comment on what they are doing that meets the standard of "violence".

Protest involving shutdown of buildings and damge to property, resulting in those Nazi speakers being run out of town on a rail? Hells yes.

Injury to people? That's tougher to defend. BUT Let's not forget that Charlottesville culminated in the murder of a counter protester. That's not comparable to Richard Spencer getting punched in the face on national TV. The latter is a violent act, but it may serve to prevent violence once all these newly empowered asshole racists get the message that if they talk that shit in the public square, there is a very high likelihood of getting punched in the face for it.

Call me squishy on the rule of law but that's where I'm at.
Jimbo wrote:I guess I am over Graham Nash's politics. Hopelessly naive by the standards I've molded for myself these days.

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Dr Markus » 07 Mar 2018, 23:50

No, that's grand you answered the question that i asked. Cool.

See, i don't think that was so bad. We had a debate, it was civil-ish, and it came to a natural end. Noone suddenly became right wing, as far as i know. That's all i wanted, a bit of debate.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby kalowski II: The Revenge » 07 Mar 2018, 23:53

Mrs Brown You’ve Got A Lovely Daughter (But She’s Not Quite Aryan Enough For Me)
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Count Machuki
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Count Machuki » 07 Mar 2018, 23:53

Dr Markus wrote:Noone suddenly became right wing...


*crosses fingers, holds breath*
come on come on come on
Last edited by Count Machuki on 07 Mar 2018, 23:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Then it follows that ∀ k ∈ K: K ∈ U ⇒ k ∉ D

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Count Machuki » 07 Mar 2018, 23:54

nev gash wrote:Mrs Brown You’ve Got A Lovely Daughter (But She’s Not Quite Aryan Enough For Me)


No Milk (for Immigrants) Today
Let U be the set of all united sets, K be the set of the kids and D be the set of things divided.
Then it follows that ∀ k ∈ K: K ∈ U ⇒ k ∉ D

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Copehead » 08 Mar 2018, 00:01

Count Machuki wrote:
Dr Markus wrote:Noone suddenly became right wing...


*crosses fingers, holds breath*
come on come on come on


Peter never comes around anymore

Sad
And if you tolerate this then your children will be next

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby bobzilla77 » 08 Mar 2018, 00:03

Dr Markus wrote:No, that's grand you answered the question that i asked. Cool.

See, i don't think that was so bad. We had a debate, it was civil-ish, and it came to a natural end. Noone suddenly became right wing, as far as i know. That's all i wanted, a bit of debate.


Try going on one of their websites and post some Bono quotes and ask "what do you think of this" if you want to get a taste for their debating style. They'll give you something to think about.
Jimbo wrote:I guess I am over Graham Nash's politics. Hopelessly naive by the standards I've molded for myself these days.

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Sneelock » 08 Mar 2018, 00:05

seroiusly, I have to talk to kids about this stuff. they say "Trump is an idiot" on Facebook and they can get flooded with "we know where you live" crap. these people aren't out for a discussion - they are out to inspire fear.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 08 Mar 2018, 00:06

bobzilla77 wrote: Call me squishy on the rule of law but that's where I'm at.


Okay, so you've broken a few windows, punched a few of the assholes in the nose but they're still here. This low level vigilantism ain't working. How about we start rounding them up and putting them in concentration camps?
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Sneelock » 08 Mar 2018, 00:10

Not concentration camps - courts of law.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Count Machuki » 08 Mar 2018, 00:11

Sneelock wrote:Not concentration camps - courts of law.


Insert "the first amendment gives me the right to yell 'fire' in a crowded theater" argument here.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Sneelock » 08 Mar 2018, 00:12

Black Lives Matter WISHES they could get treated by the police the way self described fascists do in the streets of America.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby bobzilla77 » 08 Mar 2018, 00:36

Jimbo wrote:
bobzilla77 wrote: Call me squishy on the rule of law but that's where I'm at.


Okay, so you've broken a few windows, punched a few of the assholes in the nose but they're still here. This low level vigilantism ain't working. How about we start rounding them up and putting them in concentration camps?


How about we confiscate your paycheck from the Russian government who is paying you to post this shit?
Jimbo wrote:I guess I am over Graham Nash's politics. Hopelessly naive by the standards I've molded for myself these days.

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 08 Mar 2018, 00:53

bobzilla77 wrote:
Jimbo wrote:
bobzilla77 wrote: Call me squishy on the rule of law but that's where I'm at.


Okay, so you've broken a few windows, punched a few of the assholes in the nose but they're still here. This low level vigilantism ain't working. How about we start rounding them up and putting them in concentration camps?


How about we confiscate your paycheck from the Russian government who is paying you to post this shit?


C'mon, bro. Who killed more fascists than the Russians? Which country lost more lives fighting the fascists? Any anti-fa poseur worth his salt should be extolling Russia, but nah, you're a pussy and a coward and a phony and an ignoramus.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Count Machuki » 08 Mar 2018, 00:58

Jimbo wrote:
bobzilla77 wrote:
Jimbo wrote:
Okay, so you've broken a few windows, punched a few of the assholes in the nose but they're still here. This low level vigilantism ain't working. How about we start rounding them up and putting them in concentration camps?


How about we confiscate your paycheck from the Russian government who is paying you to post this shit?


C'mon, bro. Who killed more fascists than the Russians? Which country lost more lives fighting the fascists? Any anti-fa poseur worth his salt should be extolling Russia, but nah, you're a pussy and a coward and a phony and an ignoramus.


That's fucked up, Jimbo.
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Then it follows that ∀ k ∈ K: K ∈ U ⇒ k ∉ D

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby bobzilla77 » 08 Mar 2018, 01:01

:o

Well you sure told me.

It's like you love Russia so much you want to make out with it.
Jimbo wrote:I guess I am over Graham Nash's politics. Hopelessly naive by the standards I've molded for myself these days.