Former President Donald J. Trump

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Davey the Fat Boy
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 17 Jul 2018, 17:54

I’m not making light of the shit we’re in.

The way I see it, we likely won’t win the Senate and I put our odds of winning the House at just under 60%. I think he’s got a good shot of getting another Supreme Court appointment, and I’d lay the odds that all of these bastards make him President for Life at about 25% (which is scary high for my comfort).

But at some level, the American electorate is still the same electorate that elected Obama twice. I think the coalition for sanity is weakened, but not fully vanquished.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Sneelock » 17 Jul 2018, 17:59

shit, I'd take my little black pill if I didn't agree with that. there's got to be hope.
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Davey the Fat Boy
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 17 Jul 2018, 18:08

Our problems are bigger than Trump. I think he’s destined to fall soon. But then the real problems begin.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby sloopjohnc » 17 Jul 2018, 18:37

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Well it is certainly depressing that so many Americans find any of this acceptable. But we are still looking at a President who has never sniffed a 50% approval rating. What you and DD are describing is the sound of 40% hardening into cement.


Yeah, but his approval rate among Republicans is around 90% last I heard.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 17 Jul 2018, 19:04

Yeah - but Republicans are only 30% of the country.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby sloopjohnc » 17 Jul 2018, 19:14

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Yeah - but Republicans are only 30% of the country.


Depends who votes though too - and Republicans tend to be older.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 17 Jul 2018, 19:20

What I’m saying is: Trump is running a “base strategy” in that - everything he’s doing okays to his base rather than expanding it.

It is actually a mirror of the Dems current weakness, where they run up the popular vote in blue states and lose the electoral college.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby bobzilla77 » 17 Jul 2018, 20:01

I'm still not hearing a convincing through-line to working people along the lines of "Trump and his rich buddies are fucking you over, here's how. And here's what we the Democrats plan to do to turn it around. You should vote for us even if you think we are kind of aloof and out of touch, because our policies will benefit you and your family."

Trump's base doesn't love him because he's given them anything valuable. They love him because he TALKS TO THEM AS IF THEY EXIST. That is where Dems need to change their strategy. Don't demonize those people. I remember the first time I heard Hill use the term "Deplorabes" and saw it get turned into a badge of honor by those people within half an hour. It is not surprising that people dislike being personally demonized by their potential elected leaders. I know we are kinda mad at those people and blame them for the current state of affairs. But they are the wrong target. Eventually we have to get back on the same page with them.
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Sneelock
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Sneelock » 17 Jul 2018, 20:41

I love posts like that. I agree with a lot of it and I don't agree with a lot of it.

bobzilla77 wrote:I'm still not hearing a convincing through-line to working people along the lines of "Trump and his rich buddies are fucking you over, here's how. And here's what we the Democrats plan to do to turn it around. You should vote for us even if you think we are kind of aloof and out of touch, because our policies will benefit you and your family."

couldn't agree more. I think this is why "progressive" grassroots candidates are cleaning the clocks of establishment candidates even in red states. this is why Feinstein is getting kicked to the curb by California Democrats.

Trump's base doesn't love him because he's given them anything valuable. They love him because he TALKS TO THEM AS IF THEY EXIST. That is where Dems need to change their strategy. Don't demonize those people. I remember the first time I heard Hill use the term "Deplorabes" and saw it get turned into a badge of honor by those people within half an hour. It is not surprising that people dislike being personally demonized by their potential elected leaders. I know we are kinda mad at those people and blame them for the current state of affairs. But they are the wrong target. Eventually we have to get back on the same page with them.


okay, I get what you're trying to say but I see some different problems here. When Hillary said "Deplorables" I think this was like Howard Dean's "AARGH" it wasn't so much what they did but how it was communicated to people. Was Hillary really insulting the backbone of America when she used the term? I don't think so. I think we ALL knew who she was talking about. she was talking about those rat-bastards who eventually showed up in Charlotsville & those white nationalists running for office with R's after their names. every pundit and mainstream Democrat who went with the "backbone of America" angle on "deplorables" had as much to do with it poisoning the water supply as the Repubs did. THAT was the time to stand up and call people out - they didn't do it. TRUMP was still re-tweeting White Nationalists at that point! Maybe she shouldn't have said it but once she DID say it I don't think they should have scattered for cover - they should have doubled down. Yeah, people who aren't racists don't like to be called racists BUT how do they like standing shoulder to shoulder with people who are PROUDLY racist? we'll never know because they backed the fuck down from that fight. Now "deplorable" MEANS "the backbone of America" what astounding douche baggery to let a thing like that happen IMO.

overall, I agree. I think we all know Trump supporters who say they admire Bernie. Does this mean they want their taxes to pay for free college? no, it means they know they're getting screwed. they are still getting screwed and they are still standing shoulder to shoulder with some racist assholes. Will the Dems take those bulls by the horns? I'm not holding my breath.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Diamond Dog » 17 Jul 2018, 21:12

bobzilla77 wrote:
Trump's base doesn't love him because he's given them anything valuable. They love him because he TALKS TO THEM AS IF THEY EXIST. That is where Dems need to change their strategy. Don't demonize those people. I remember the first time I heard Hill use the term "Deplorabes" and saw it get turned into a badge of honor by those people within half an hour. It is not surprising that people dislike being personally demonized by their potential elected leaders. I know we are kinda mad at those people and blame them for the current state of affairs. But they are the wrong target. Eventually we have to get back on the same page with them.


That's it. That is exactly it. It's exactly what this country did wrong with Brexit - it treated the people who were or may have been for it like they were fucking idiots. Which, truth be told, many were. But that morally superior tone (and I was guilty of it myself, I must confess) just hardened those maybe's into 'fuck yeah - and stick THAT up your superior fucking arse".

I'm not sure what the Democrats have to do to beat Trump - but re running Hillary's campaign with a different leader will bring the same end result. And I haven't heard anything in the past 18 months or so to suggest that's not what's going to happen. I only wish I had.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby sloopjohnc » 17 Jul 2018, 21:16

bobzilla77 wrote:I'm still not hearing a convincing through-line to working people along the lines of "Trump and his rich buddies are fucking you over, here's how. And here's what we the Democrats plan to do to turn it around. You should vote for us even if you think we are kind of aloof and out of touch, because our policies will benefit you and your family."


Our corporate counsel and executive admin were talking outside my cubicle one day. The corporate counsel asked the admin how she could vote for Trump? She said her 401K told her to vote for Trump.

There are a lot of problems with the new tax plan and tariffs, but the economy is good, and Trump supporters aren't very good in thinking in abstracts, I've found. But that's true with lots of people, they don't see beyond their own paycheck and lower prices. It doesn't help them to repudiate their own voting decision.

And you can tell them that Obama saved us from a Depression and got the economy going again and Trump is reaping the benefits. But I think Obama's race was huge among folks that are now With Trump supporters, Obama never did anything good for them. Or that's how they see it.

We're seeing all that suppressed ethnic and religious rage now because those folks had to repress it for 8 years. Now they have explicit and implicit permission.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby sloopjohnc » 17 Jul 2018, 21:18

Diamond Dog wrote:
bobzilla77 wrote:
Trump's base doesn't love him because he's given them anything valuable. They love him because he TALKS TO THEM AS IF THEY EXIST. That is where Dems need to change their strategy. Don't demonize those people. I remember the first time I heard Hill use the term "Deplorabes" and saw it get turned into a badge of honor by those people within half an hour. It is not surprising that people dislike being personally demonized by their potential elected leaders. I know we are kinda mad at those people and blame them for the current state of affairs. But they are the wrong target. Eventually we have to get back on the same page with them.


That's it. That is exactly it. It's exactly what this country did wrong with Brexit - it treated the people who were or may have been for it like they were fucking idiots. Which, truth be told, many were. But that morally superior tone (and I was guilty of it myself, I must confess) just hardened those maybe's into 'fuck yeah - and stick THAT up your superior fucking arse".

I'm not sure what the Democrats have to do to beat Trump - but re running Hillary's campaign with a different leader will bring the same end result. And I haven't heard anything in the past 18 months or so to suggest that's not what's going to happen. I only wish I had.


I wish Biden had run. He can plainspeak on Trump's level. Clinton's wonkiness hurt her.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 17 Jul 2018, 21:18

Please.

You want to hear moral superiority? Listen to the way Republicans talk about Democrats. I don’t buy the “liberal smug” argument. Republicans are plenty smug - but they don’t even entertain the notion that they need to win us over. They just barrel forward and leave the self-examination to the pussies.


Look - Republicans have a communications infrastructure that includes tv, radio, the internet and most church pews. When they want to put out a unified message, their whole flock can be singing from the same hymn book within minutes.

Democrats don’t have all of that. We spend the majority of our time arguing with each other. So I just don’t know what it would look like if they were doing what you guys feel like they ought to be doing. In fact, if they did - it would be written off as a “coronation” or “falling in line with the DNC.” The GOP is a party of people who are roughly the same color, culture and religion. The Democrats are a cohort of outside cats.

But there are more of us than there are them. If we can unite, we can win.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby sloopjohnc » 17 Jul 2018, 21:27

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Please.

You want to hear moral superiority? Listen to the way Republicans talk about Democrats. I don’t buy the “liberal smug” argument. Republicans are plenty smug - but they don’t even entertain the notion that they need to win us over. They just barrel forward and leave the self-examination to the pussies.


Look - Republicans have a communications infrastructure that includes tv, radio, the internet and most church pews. When they want to put out a unified message, their whole flock can be singing from the same hymn book within minutes.

Democrats don’t have all of that. We spend the majority of our time arguing with each other. So I just don’t know what it would look like if they were doing what you guys feel like they ought to be doing. In fact, if they did - it would be written off as a “coronation” or “falling in line with the DNC.” The GOP is a party of people who are roughly the same color, culture and religion. The Democrats are a cohort of outside cats.

But there are more of us than there are them. If we can unite, we can win.


If.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Diamond Dog » 17 Jul 2018, 21:50

Davey the Fat Boy wrote: I don’t buy the “liberal smug” argument.


Because you're part of it, possibly? (And I don't mean that disparagingly).
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 17 Jul 2018, 22:09

Diamond Dog wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote: I don’t buy the “liberal smug” argument.


Because you're part of it, possibly? (And I don't mean that disparagingly).


Well...I lived for years in Georgia, so I think I have a pretty good sense of what life is like outside the bubble. But who is to say?

I DO spend a decent amount of time trying to get my fellow liberals to see that people in “flyover country” actually believe what they say they believe and aren’t just waiting for a more committed progressive to come along.

But whatever our blind spots, I can tell you with great assurance that there isn’t an alternate universe where they are currently trying to figure out whether they ought to consider a charm offensive towards us in order to hold off the blue wave. They. Don’t. Care.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Sneelock » 17 Jul 2018, 23:38

why should they? celebs who openly trashed President Obama got invited to State of the Union addresses and treated like A-List celebrities.
comedians call Trump's press secretaries liars and get admonished to behave themselves.

the game, she is rigged.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Sneelock » 17 Jul 2018, 23:50

I think the smugness of liberals is a fair subject but I think, overall, it's a pretty lazy argument.
it exists - no doubt about it. I'll also freely admit that it does Dems NO favors. As a matter of fact, I think Rachel Maddow & Anderson Cooper snickering about "tea baggers" did almost as much to energize that movement as nut jobs like Glenn Beck did. those smug liberals making fun of us!! we'll show them!!

still, I think the whole argument turns into a Markus thread pretty fast. yeah, smugness exists on that end but why is that so remarked upon when Hank Williams Junior and guys like that could all but say Obama should "go back where he came from"?

one side is characterized as being principled. maybe they get a little carried away but, gosh darn it, thats' what happens when you love America so much. the other side is characterized as being too superior and not reaching out enough to the other side. Davey is right. who told the other side not to say they could prove Obama wasn't a natural born citizen? nobody. it became somebody's launching pad to National politics. now, we need to consider our words very carefully so we don't offend the delicate sensibilities of Trump supporters???

more offense was taken at people cussing out those who advocated the "zero tolerance" policy than by the policy itself. that is fucked up.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby BARON CORNY DOG » 18 Jul 2018, 00:16

take5_d_shorterer wrote:If John Bonham simply didn't listen to enough Tommy Johnson or Blind Willie Mctell, that's his doing.

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Sneelock » 18 Jul 2018, 00:29

It sure would be nice to hear more high profile Repubs mentioning TRUMP’s taxes.
It could happen.
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