Former President Donald J. Trump

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Davey the Fat Boy
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 01 Jun 2018, 17:07

Beyond the fact that this is a strange non-sequitur of a response...it also indulges in the FDR-as-Progressive-Superhero myth.

Let’s be clear. FDR would have interned your family if you had lived in his time - and he had no problem upholding the power of the Jim Crow era Southern Dixiecrats. So stick that in your pipe mister, “get rid of all the identity politics.”

There was also significant criticism from the left of FDR’s policies. He was viewed as too close to Wall Street, and was accused of upholding a system ought to be done away with.

I have no doubt that you would have been a critic of FDR if you lived during his time. You’d surely have thrown your lot behind someone like Huey Long who said the following of Roosevelt:

"When I saw him spending all his time of ease and recreation with the big partners of Mr. John D. Rockefeller, Jr., with such men as the Astors and company, maybe I ought to have had better sense than to have believed he would ever break down their big fortunes to give enough to the masses to end poverty.”


Does this line of criticism sound like anyone we know?
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 01 Jun 2018, 17:52

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Beyond the fact that this is a strange non-sequitur of a response...it also indulges in the FDR-as-Progressive-Superhero myth.

Let’s be clear. FDR would have interned your family if you had lived in his time - and he had no problem upholding the power of the Jim Crow era Southern Dixiecrats. So stick that in your pipe mister, “get rid of all the identity politics.”

There was also significant criticism from the left of FDR’s policies. He was viewed as too close to Wall Street, and was accused of upholding a system ought to be done away with.

I have no doubt that you would have been a critic of FDR if you lived during his time. You’d surely have thrown your lot behind someone like Huey Long who said the following of Roosevelt:

"When I saw him spending all his time of ease and recreation with the big partners of Mr. John D. Rockefeller, Jr., with such men as the Astors and company, maybe I ought to have had better sense than to have believed he would ever break down their big fortunes to give enough to the masses to end poverty.”


Does this line of criticism sound like anyone we know?


Good point. I could very well have been a Huey Long fan.

My larger point, however, is that if the Dems want to beat Trump they'd better come up with liberal progressive policies and some backbone.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 01 Jun 2018, 18:51

...and MY larger point is that if Democrats want to win elections, we’d be stupid to make courting the likes of you (who just admitted that you might very well have supported a demagogue like Huey Long over FDR) the center of our efforts.

There is literally no pleasing people like you. Only a fool would stake their success on doing so. Thus...you make yourself irrelevant.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 02 Jun 2018, 06:39

Bernie saying pretty much what I mean especially about the state of the Democrats. Not a word about RUSSIA!!! Nor did Maher ask … at last.

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Nikki Gradual » 02 Jun 2018, 09:43

Doesn't a very big letter make small hands look even tinier?

Outmanoeuvred again.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 03 Jun 2018, 00:25

Amid ‘Russiagate’ Hysteria, What Are the Facts?

We must end this Russophobic insanity.

By Jack F. Matlock Jr. YESTERDAY 2:01 PM


From The Nation. Yes, THE NATION magazine, the top liberal/progressive publication in the USA saying what I, via Robert Parry and others have been saying for a long time.

https://www.thenation.com/article/amid- ... the-facts/
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 03 Jun 2018, 01:51

Jimbo wrote:
Amid ‘Russiagate’ Hysteria, What Are the Facts?

We must end this Russophobic insanity.

By Jack F. Matlock Jr. YESTERDAY 2:01 PM


From The Nation. Yes, THE NATION magazine, the top liberal/progressive publication in the USA saying what I, via Robert Parry and others have been saying for a long time.

https://www.thenation.com/article/amid- ... the-facts/


:o What?!!! The Nation?!!!

The one published by Katrina vanden Heuvel, known Russiaphile and wife of known Putin-apologist Stephen Cohen?!!!

Wow! What a coup for your argument!

:roll:
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 03 Jun 2018, 06:15

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
Jimbo wrote:
Amid ‘Russiagate’ Hysteria, What Are the Facts?

We must end this Russophobic insanity.

By Jack F. Matlock Jr. YESTERDAY 2:01 PM


From The Nation. Yes, THE NATION magazine, the top liberal/progressive publication in the USA saying what I, via Robert Parry and others have been saying for a long time.

https://www.thenation.com/article/amid- ... the-facts/


:o What?!!! The Nation?!!!

The one published by Katrina vanden Heuvel, known Russiaphile and wife of known Putin-apologist Stephen Cohen?!!!

Wow! What a coup for your argument!

:roll:


Point taken. That aside, including your misconception of Cohen as an "apologist," the article's point stands.

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Snarfyguy » 04 Jun 2018, 15:20

To most of that article I respond "So what?"

Somebody in The Nation wrote:I did not personally vote for Trump, but I consider the charges that Russian actions interfered in the election, or—for that matter—damaged the quality of our democracy ludicrous, pathetic, and shameful.


This misses the point by a wide mark. The point is that the president's inner circle engaged in criminal conduct, which they lied about and which the president blunderingly tried to cover up.

The fact that this involves Russia -- a long-term adversary -- makes it worse than if it had been, say Italy or Argentina, but otherwise any "hysteria" in that regard is a diversion. The federal investigations underway are critically important and the press should of course cover them diligently.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Sneelock » 04 Jun 2018, 20:59

you see that confidential memo story over the weekend in the failing New York times? The way Giuliani has been talking and TRUMP has been tweeting make the President's position clear. he didn't do anything wrong because he is the President and he is incapable of doing anything wrong. He could end the investigation so how could he possibly obstruct it?

why in the world would someone keep insisting -- officially by letter and now in the court of public opinion -- that they didn't do anything wrong but, even if they did, they didn't do anything wrong? it's mental!!
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Snarfyguy » 04 Jun 2018, 22:29

"It's not murder when the president does it!"
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby copehead » 05 Jun 2018, 00:04

Snarfyguy wrote:"It's not murder when the president does it!"


L'etat? C'est moi.

You guys need a revolution to get rid of this idea that the head of state is the personification of law.

We made the head of state subject to the law in the 13th century and later cut off the head of one who got a bit uppity.

You should follow our example.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby BARON CORNY DOG » 05 Jun 2018, 00:46

Copehead wrote:You guys need a revolution to get rid of this idea that the head of state is the personification of law.

We made the head of state subject to the law in the 13th century and later cut off the head of one who got a bit uppity.


That’s what impeachment is for.

The head of state is not the personification of law, he is the chief executive and one of his duties is enforcement of federal law (written by the legislative branch and interpreted by the judicial branch). This is why he cannot, as a legal matter, obstruct justice. However, the House and Senate can decide that he has comported himself in such a lawless fashion to subject himself to impeachment.
take5_d_shorterer wrote:If John Bonham simply didn't listen to enough Tommy Johnson or Blind Willie Mctell, that's his doing.

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby copehead » 05 Jun 2018, 01:24

LeBaron wrote:
Copehead wrote:You guys need a revolution to get rid of this idea that the head of state is the personification of law.

We made the head of state subject to the law in the 13th century and later cut off the head of one who got a bit uppity.


That’s what impeachment is for.

The head of state is not the personification of law, he is the chief executive and one of his duties is enforcement of federal law (written by the legislative branch and interpreted by the judicial branch). This is why he cannot, as a legal matter, obstruct justice. However, the House and Senate can decide that he has comported himself in such a lawless fashion to subject himself to impeachment.


But if the legislature will not impeach?

I suppose it depends what he has done; I suppose if he shot Melania on live TV they might think about it, but I doubt treason is enough for them to think of their country before themselves.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby BARON CORNY DOG » 05 Jun 2018, 01:45

Copehead wrote:
LeBaron wrote:
Copehead wrote:You guys need a revolution to get rid of this idea that the head of state is the personification of law.

We made the head of state subject to the law in the 13th century and later cut off the head of one who got a bit uppity.


That’s what impeachment is for.

The head of state is not the personification of law, he is the chief executive and one of his duties is enforcement of federal law (written by the legislative branch and interpreted by the judicial branch). This is why he cannot, as a legal matter, obstruct justice. However, the House and Senate can decide that he has comported himself in such a lawless fashion to subject himself to impeachment.


But if the legislature will not impeach?


The remedy is with the people. The entire House of Representatives and one third of the Senate is up for election every two years. Failing that, the people revoke the executive’s license to enforce the laws by electing someone else as President at the next opportunity.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby copehead » 05 Jun 2018, 16:07

LeBaron wrote:
Copehead wrote:
LeBaron wrote:
That’s what impeachment is for.

The head of state is not the personification of law, he is the chief executive and one of his duties is enforcement of federal law (written by the legislative branch and interpreted by the judicial branch). This is why he cannot, as a legal matter, obstruct justice. However, the House and Senate can decide that he has comported himself in such a lawless fashion to subject himself to impeachment.


But if the legislature will not impeach?


The remedy is with the people. The entire House of Representatives and one third of the Senate is up for election every two years. Failing that, the people revoke the executive’s license to enforce the laws by electing someone else as President at the next opportunity.


Let's hope so, the checks and balances work for normal times let's hope they still work now with around half the population disenfranchised or unwilling to engage, perhaps you need this monster to re-engage people in the political process, but it is probably better to have a positive driver rather than a negative one. Give people something to vote for and they will vote.

That is why I distrust the - don't scare the horses - attitude that is prevalent on here and in US "left" politics. Trying to pander to a center that may no longer even be there. Scare the horses and try and engage with the millions who have given up on politics. Worked, after a fashion, in the UK, didn't even need a charismatic leader just one who didn't dissemble and speak in platitudes.

Western politics has become incredibly polarized, the Republicans realize this, they don't pander to the imaginary center they energise their, relatively small, base and act completely with out scruples when in power to disenfranchise the opposition. I wonder when the Democrats will realize the game has changed?
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby BARON CORNY DOG » 05 Jun 2018, 16:52

LeBaron wrote:This is why he cannot, as a legal matter, obstruct justice.


I should add that this is not an uncontroversial point, but the arguments to the contrary aren’t particularly convincing to me. I’ll write more about this someday. Suffice it to say, I think today’s Supreme Court (or five of its Justices) would side with Justice Scalia’s point of view of executive authority and prerogative in Morrison v. Olson.

If all executive power resides with the President, then he necessarily has plenary control over federal law enforcement.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morrison_v._Olson

Opinions here:

https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme- ... 7/654.html

That same majority would be unimpressed with Trump’s general contempt for the rule of law, so he might win a legal point and lose a broader war.
take5_d_shorterer wrote:If John Bonham simply didn't listen to enough Tommy Johnson or Blind Willie Mctell, that's his doing.

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby sloopjohnc » 05 Jun 2018, 17:14

I was reading somewhere something a year or so ago that Congress has ceded power over ot executive privilege in lots of different areas in the last decade or so. I follow politics on an interested level, but really don't know too much except the basic constitution, but I'm no constitutional scholar or anything.

I'm sure Trump doesn't know about that slow cessation of power, but he could certainly use it to his advantage.

He keeps tweeting about the "Russia witchhunt" and no collusion and I keep replying that if there's no collusion, why is he tweeting about it again and again?
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Sneelock » 05 Jun 2018, 19:09

A recent study asked people which words best described the Mueller Investigation. A strong majority said “witch hunt”. What other single word is used as frequently to describe it?
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Sneelock » 05 Jun 2018, 19:10

It wasn’t that long ago the R’s had a lot to say about the importance of “the unitary executive” then a Dem got in. Well now the pendulum has swung back but that’s WAY too many words for the modern day Republican.
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