Former President Donald J. Trump

[Jimbo]

I guess I am frustrated by how we are still not over the Russia thing, how readily we are still, after more than a year of this ridiculousness, still supposed to accept the joke's punchline because of course Putin lied to Trump. Putin lies about everything. Russia is a country filled with troll farms, its raison d'etre is to meddle, to fuck with our democracy, to sew dissension. Take the easy, unassuming, un-skeptical way Colbert and Bill Maher (I count them as media) still use Russia as a punchline. Of course Russia has spies but time after time I have shown you much counter-evidence, shadows of doubt in case after case how the meddling case is bogus. Bots, stolen emails, even Trump associates visiting Russia, so far Meuller has shown you nothing. When he does it will probably be just as easy to debunk. You fail to see that this has all the hallmarks of a a hoax, a disinformation campaign morphed into a witch hunt perpetrated by our intelligence agents. This is an American op played on Americans it's purpose being a dangerous geopolitical war move preparing you for the soon to come war with Russia. Your minds will be primed and ready to fight. Think aluminum tubes. They pushed that lie down your throat to make you hate Saaddam and now they have you hating Putin. That Obama and Hillary and co. did similar shit with Russia should tell you that dealing with Russia - up until after HRC's loss - was business as usual. Snarf's joke is not funny because at it's root is war.

[Snarfyguy]

I guess I am frustrated by how we are still not over the Russia thing, how readily we are still, after more than a year of this ridiculousness, still supposed to accept the joke's punchline because of course Putin lied to Trump. Putin lies about everything. Russia is a country filled with troll farms, its raison d'etre is to meddle, to fuck with our democracy, to sew dissension. Take the easy, unassuming, un-skeptical way Colbert and Bill Maher (I count them as media) still use Russia as a punchline. Of course Russia has spies but time after time I have shown you much counter-evidence, shadows of doubt in case after case how the meddling case is bogus. Bots, stolen emails, even Trump associates visiting Russia, so far Meuller has shown you nothing. When he does it will probably be just as easy to debunk. You fail to see that this has all the hallmarks of a a hoax, a disinformation campaign morphed into a witch hunt perpetrated by our intelligence agents. This is an American op played on Americans it's purpose being a dangerous geopolitical war move preparing you for the soon to come war with Russia. Your minds will be primed and ready to fight. Think aluminum tubes. They pushed that lie down your throat to make you hate Saaddam and now they have you hating Putin. That Obama and Hillary and co. did similar shit with Russia should tell you that dealing with Russia, up until after HRC's loss, was business as usual. Snarf's joke is not funny because at it's root is war.

Yeah, except everything you wrote above is either false or irrelevant.

Your argument that "we do it too" is particularly unimpressive!

[S]o far Meuller has shown you nothing.

Indictments? Guilty pleas? That's nothing?

[Jimbo]

Your argument that "we do it too" is particularly unimpressive!

We did do it. And we did it in Ukraine. We are doing it in Venezuela. How many other countries is America fucking with their governments? It's what America does.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iran ... p_d%27état

Covert United States involvement in regime change
1949 Syrian coup d'état
1949–1953 Albania
1951–56 Tibet
1953 Iranian coup d'état
1954 Guatemalan coup d'état
1956–57 Syria crisis
1957–58 Indonesian rebellion
1959–2000 Cuba, assassination attempts on Fidel Castro
1959 Cambodian "Bangkok Plot"
1960 Congo coup
1961 Cuba, Bay of Pigs Invasion
1961 Cuba, Operation Mongoose
1961 Dominican Republic
1963 South Vietnamese coup
1964 Bolivian coup d'état
1964 Brazilian coup d'état
1966 Ghana coup d'état
1970 Cambodian coup
1971 Bolivian coup d'état
1970–73 Chile
1979–89 Afghanistan, Operation Cyclone
1981–87 Nicaragua, Contras
1982 Chad
1991 Haiti
1996 Iraq coup attempt
2001 Afghanistan
2004 Haiti
2011 Libyan civil war
2011–2017 Syria

The 1953 Iranian coup d'état, known in Iran as the 28 Mordad coup d'état (Persian: کودتای ۲۸ مرداد‎‎), was the overthrow of the democratically elected Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh in favour of strengthening the monarchical rule of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi on 19 August 1953, orchestrated by the United Kingdom (under the name "Operation Boot") and the United States (under the name TPAJAX Project[5] or "Operation Ajax").

[Snarfyguy]

We did do it. And we did it in Ukraine. We are doing it in Venezuela. How many other countries is America fucking with their governments? It's what America does.

I'm aware of the tradition of the CIA meddling in overseas elections and so forth, but if you're proposing an equivalence between that history and the 2016 election, then you're explicitly conceding that there *was* interference at the Kremlin's behest.

But how exactly does our subversion of other nations' political processes excuse the conduct Mueller is looking for? By what mechanism of ethics or jurisprudence do actions in Column A allow actions in Column B to be considered justified, to you? Did we have a surplus of guilt that was somehow wiped out by bad actions taken against us last year?

Is it just some sort of abstract notion of Karma, that we can't complain because we've been complicit in bad actions elsewhere? If not that, then what, precisely, are you saying?

[Jimbo]

We did do it. And we did it in Ukraine. We are doing it in Venezuela. How many other countries is America fucking with their governments? It's what America does.

I'm aware of the tradition of the CIA meddling in overseas elections and so forth, but if you're proposing an equivalence between that history and the 2016 election, then you're explicitly conceding that there *was* interference at the Kremlin's behest.

But how exactly does our subversion of other nations' political processes excuse the conduct Mueller is looking for? By what mechanism of ethics or jurisprudence do actions in Column A allow actions in Column B to be considered justified, to you? Is it just some sort of abstract notion of Karma, that we can't complain because we've been complicit in bad actions elsewhere? If not that, then what, precisely, are you saying?

I'm saying what you are being told by the media is bullshit, lies to make you think a certain way.

If you read that Wiki bit about Iran you will see the op was multi-pronged with a lot of shit thrown in, newspapers bought off, false flag rioters to make the Iranians think their president was a communist, reminiscent of what we are doing to Putin today. How is it that while I find much credible information on the internet arguing my point, If I go to Democratic Underground I see yours. But if you go to the mainstream media, the late night comics, CNN, NYT, and so on, there is this uniformity that pretty much argues only your side? That is what I meant by how they omit information. While A says this about Russia B says this. But no, you only get POV A.

I also heard that we were blessed with a few years post Vietnam, post that commission that dressed down the CIA (I forget the senator's name) where the CIA pretty much behaved itself. That is why it is hard to believe we are at it again. But we are!

[Jimbo]

Well, well, well. How timely!

Mocking Trump Doesn’t Prove Russia’s Guilt
November 13, 2017

Exclusive: President Trump is getting mocked for “trusting” Vladimir Putin’s denial about “meddling” in U.S. politics — and not accepting Official Washington’s groupthink — but ridicule isn’t evidence, writes ex-CIA analyst Ray McGovern.

https://consortiumnews.com/2017/11/13/m ... ias-guilt/

[Snarfyguy]

Well, well, well. How timely!

Mocking Trump Doesn’t Prove Russia’s Guilt
November 13, 2017

Exclusive: President Trump is getting mocked for “trusting” Vladimir Putin’s denial about “meddling” in U.S. politics — and not accepting Official Washington’s groupthink — but ridicule isn’t evidence, writes ex-CIA analyst Ray McGovern.

https://consortiumnews.com/2017/11/13/m ... ias-guilt/

Wow, they really blew the roof off that story!

Where did anyone ever argue that Mocking Trump proves Russia's Guilt?

[toomanyhatz]

Jimbo, a lot of your arguments use your interpretation of people's motivation to lie as evidence. So since you keep warning us that we're risking war with Russia here, perhaps you could explain our motivation to piss off Russia? Or theirs to go to war with us?

I mean, I GET Trump's motivation - he's a child. But how you get from American "meddling" to World War Three I must admit is still a mystery to me.

Whatever any of us may think of Putin, he doesn't strike me as the type to press a button at a perceived insult. Kim Jung Un, on the other hand...

[Jimbo]

Well, well, well. How timely!

Mocking Trump Doesn’t Prove Russia’s Guilt
November 13, 2017

Exclusive: President Trump is getting mocked for “trusting” Vladimir Putin’s denial about “meddling” in U.S. politics — and not accepting Official Washington’s groupthink — but ridicule isn’t evidence, writes ex-CIA analyst Ray McGovern.

https://consortiumnews.com/2017/11/13/m ... ias-guilt/

Wow, they really blew the roof off that story!

Where did anyone ever argue that Mocking Trump proves Russia's Guilt?

So… you are convinced of Russia's guilt. Just want to get that established because I'm a teeny bit unsure of where you stand. You do acknowledge the US/CIA does meddle, does collude, does rig elections, does overthrow governments but, I assume, you think Russia is playing the same game against us. Even when the ex-CIA writer says how the CIA itself is unsure of Russia's guilt and that only a few Washington insiders say they are sure, as does Bill Maher and Stephen Colbert. And so Ray McGovern is lying, is that what you think?

[Jimbo]

Jimbo, a lot of your arguments use your interpretation of people's motivation to lie as evidence. So since you keep warning us that we're risking war with Russia here, perhaps you could explain our motivation to piss off Russia? Or theirs to go to war with us?

I mean, I GET Trump's motivation - he's a child. But how you get from American "meddling" to World War Three I must admit is still a mystery to me.

Whatever any of us may think of Putin, he doesn't strike me as the type to press a button at a perceived insult. Kim Jung Un, on the other hand...

With our missiles and troops surrounding Russia, on its borders, what other reasonable conclusion could Putin make? Look what almost happened in Cuba in the 60s. We had never been as close to nuclear war until now. And Russia was only reacting to our missiles in Turkey on the Russian border. Now we have even more and Russia has no missiles on our borders or in Cuba today.

Why are we doing this? We want a Russian government that is more like our puppet, like we had with Yeltsin. Ah those were the days … for us! The countries towards which we are most belligerent, countries that we've fucked up, were the ones which didn't follow our rules, countries with an independent streak who wanted to rule themselves their way. Both Saddam and Qadaffi wanted to sell their oil in currencies that were not US dollars. BOOM! Mossadeq wanted to nationalize their oil. Guatemala wanted to redistribute United Fruits land to the peasants. And so on. We think with NATO at our side we can invade Russia and do what we did to all those other countries and get the resources. Right now we are insulting Russians with these stupid jokes and idiotic charges. That's how fights start. Amazingly Putin has kept his cool. Trump - in this case - is keeping his cool. Why we can't work with Russia, be friends, defeat ISIS together share shit, I don't know. That was one of the few good things that Trump campaigned on.

[toomanyhatz]

We think with NATO at our side we can invade Russia and do what we did to all those other countries and get the resources.

Oh, I thought you were saying we'd piss off Putin and he'd drop a bomb on us - not that we'd invade Russia.

Seriously - do you REALLY believe this? Why are we wasting precious resources in Afghanistan, then, if Russia's the big game?

God, your characterization of Trump as the "voice of reason" is off-base in more ways than I can count. I don't even see any of your buddies at Consortium News putting that particular theory forward...

[Snarfyguy]

So… you are convinced of Russia's guilt. Just want to get that established because I'm a teeny bit unsure of where you stand. You do acknowledge the US/CIA does meddle, does collude, does rig elections, does overthrow governments but, I assume, you think Russia is playing the same game against us. Even when the ex-CIA writer says how the CIA itself is unsure of Russia's guilt and that only a few Washington insiders say they are sure, as does Bill Maher and Stephen Colbert. And so Ray McGovern is lying, is that what you think?

No, that's the wrong question. I don't think he's "lying." It's an opinion piece and your guy appears to be saying (forgive me not making it all the way through; it's long) "show us the evidence."

I think that's getting the cart way before the horse; why would Mueller start disclosing evidence in an investigation that's currently in progress? That's not how this stuff works. To the extent he has evidence, it will be produced in some sort of adversarial proceeding, not blabbed to the press beforehand.

I don't know or really care what those TV hosts think, but there's no disagreement among top-level intelligence dudes that Russia attempted to manipulate the outcome of last year's election, notwithstanding what a "former CIA analyst" has to say about it.

The fact of the matter is you'd prefer to believe that guy, I suppose just because he rejects the received wisdom on the matter.

I'm saying what you are being told by the media is bullshit, lies to make you think a certain way.

In a broad sense, I suspect there's some truth to this claim, although I reject the notion of a top-down conspiracy designed to make me want the U.S. to go to war with Russia because Putin's feelings got hurt. The media just wants to preserve the status quo so I'll buy stuff on credit.

[bobzilla77]

I'm more convinced than ever that Jimbo is here at the pleasure of the Russian government.

[Jimbo]

.

[Jimbo]

I'm more convinced than ever that Jimbo is here at the pleasure of the Russian government.

We’re not just entering a New Cold War and a New McCarthyism; we’re also getting a heavy dose of old-style Orwellianism.

https://consortiumnews.com/2017/11/14/a ... ensorship/

[Jimbo]

Heil Amerika!

In one of the most horrendous blows to press freedom since the anti-communist witch hunts of the 1950s, the U.S. Department of Justice has forced the news broadcaster RT America to file under the Foreign Agents Registration Act (FARA).

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/rt-am ... h-hunt-17/

[harvey k-tel]

Now THIS is how you get shit done, Donny:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/cambodia-opposition-dissolved-1.4404738

[sloopjohnc]

This exemplifies why Trump is a dick:

The Trump administration has lifted the Obama administration’s ban on exporting trophies from elephant hunts in Zimbabwe and Zambia.

I'm sure Donnie Jr. and Eric had something to do with this.

[harvey k-tel]

Ya think?

Fuck, I just want someone to kill that whole fucking stupid family.

[Sneelock]

I follow people on Facebook who used to post big game hunter shame memes and call those guys names. THEN they became TRUMP supporters and it just seems like they stopped caring about that stuff. it's weird.