President Donald J. Trump

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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PresMuffley
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby PresMuffley » 09 Mar 2017, 05:20

Davey the Fat Boy wrote: What it isn't is a smear campaign...which is how Greenwald chose to sell it.


If not character assassination, what do you think Saban's intent was in making such an outlandish claim? Are you hung up on 'smear' or 'campaign'?

But on exactly what basis do progressives feel that they are entitled to majority power within the party?


I haven't heard any progressives state that they feel they are entitled to a majority. Many - myself included - want nothing to do with the party at all.
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Davey the Fat Boy
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 09 Mar 2017, 06:53

PresMuffley wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote: What it isn't is a smear campaign...which is how Greenwald chose to sell it.


If not character assassination, what do you think Saban's intent was in making such an outlandish claim? Are you hung up on 'smear' or 'campaign'?


Are we really going to parse this?

Look - when your entire defense of the use of the term "smear campaign" has devolved into a discussion of a single statement by one guy...you really ought to let it go.


PresMuffley wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:But on exactly what basis do progressives feel that they are entitled to majority power within the party?


I haven't heard any progressives state that they feel they are entitled to a majority. Many - myself included - want nothing to do with the party at all.


:roll:

I call bullshit. You just bemoaned the establishment not letting the left wing have the DNC chair position.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 09 Mar 2017, 07:41

Charlie O. wrote:


(The "grandmother" mention at the very end refers to something the previous guest said.)


Used to love Colbert but he's been particularly horrid when it comes to the anti-Russia mania sweeping the nation, time after time using Putin as a punchline when a smart guy like him knows there is more to the story than the simple one a fucking liar like Hayden tells. Hayden is the traitor. He lied to Congress. Watch. (and then forget.)

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby fire and fueryIre » 09 Mar 2017, 08:22

Jimbo wrote:I can't hear you! :D


You wouldn't listen to sense if you could...
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 09 Mar 2017, 08:25

Huh? :lol:
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby PresMuffley » 09 Mar 2017, 13:37

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Are we really going to parse this?


I'm merely attempting to understand your position.

when your entire defense of the use of the term "smear campaign" has devolved into a discussion of a single statement by one guy...you really ought to let it go.


I feel it is a very important point. As has been noted, Saban is not just some party outlier, and unsurprisingly the ADL also took the bait - though admittedly they weren't as vile in their attack.

You just bemoaned the establishment not letting the left wing have the DNC chair position.


You overstate your argument here. Nowhere have I done such. My view is that the process was tainted by the accusations lobbed at Ellison, not that the establishment Dems should let the left of the party have the chair. And as I said before, I have heard nothing which indicates the left feels it is entitled.

Before so readily condemning Greenwald's approach, perhaps you should take a closer look at your choice of words when writing about such issues of import.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 09 Mar 2017, 15:24

PresMuffley wrote:I feel it is a very important point. As has been noted, Saban is not just some party outlier, and unsurprisingly the ADL also took the bait - though admittedly they weren't as vile in their attack.


Okay...now that we've landed there - go back and read Greenwald's article and see how much more than that he tried to indicate at.

Had he written an article called "Saban's vile smear against Ellison" I wouldn't have bothered questioning him. But he attempted to conflate the instances of fair critique of Ellison's statements with a single instance of an unfair accusation. That's shitty journalism IMO. THAT is my point.

PresMuffley wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote: You just bemoaned the establishment not letting the left wing have the DNC chair position.


You overstate your argument here. Nowhere have I done such. My view is that the process was tainted by the accusations lobbed at Ellison, not that the establishment Dems should let the left of the party have the chair. And as I said before, I have heard nothing which indicates the left feels it is entitled.

Before so readily condemning Greenwald's approach, perhaps you should take a closer look at your choice of words when writing about such issues of import.


I'm not passing myself off as a journalist, but nice try.

You were the one who characterized the subtext to Greenwald's Ellison piece as an expression of frustration that the left wing will never be allowed to have any control of the party. This is not an argument he bothered to make. This gets back to my earlier critique of him - that there is a meta world view running through all of his work that encourages his readers to leap to his standard conclusions.

I don't disagree with you on the subtext of this article. But since it's not actually explicitly there, it's fair to assume your characterization of it is your own. It's your frustration he's picking at.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby PresMuffley » 09 Mar 2017, 16:51

By 'campaign' he is referring to not only Saban's comments but also the ADL. What constitutes a campaign in your view? How do you feel Ellison's words or, more importantly, his actions have been fairly critiqued? Should questioning U.S. policy towards Israel automatically render one subject to such skepticism?

And although Glenn doesn't specifically address my concerns regarding the DNC and the left of the party in that article, he does so here:
https://theintercept.com/2017/02/24/key-question-about-dnc-race-why-did-white-house-recruit-perez-to-run-against-ellison/

As for your opinion on Greenwald as a journalist, I feel it is best to keep in mind that he is at heart an attorney, then a journalist. He's not coming at this in a traditional manner. You may not like his style, which I am fine with, but he is writing for you as well - because ultimately we are all in this together.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Diamond Dog » 09 Mar 2017, 16:53

Diamond Dog wrote:Do you now think he should make that distinction himself, just so he can't be misquoted/misunderstood?


PresMuffley wrote:How so? By adding a IMO any time he expresses his view?


I wouldn't have thought a disclaimer to the effect that he was switching from fact to opinion and back would be disruptive and would - at the very least- leave the reader in no doubt whether he was getting fact or interpretation. Which wouldn't be a bad thing unless, of course.......

Diamond Dog wrote:Or is it possible that he quite likes that blurring of the edge, so he can jump ship either way depending on what suits later?


PresMuffley wrote:I don't feel that is the case at all.


Why not make the distinction apparent then?
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby PresMuffley » 09 Mar 2017, 18:01

I find your suggestion absurd and, quite frankly, stupid. Why should he feel the need to dumb down his writing by adding a disclaimer? Have we arrived at a point where reading comprehension is actually that low?
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Diamond Dog » 09 Mar 2017, 18:10

Ah, another one.

Carry on oh peerless one.
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Davey the Fat Boy
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 09 Mar 2017, 18:34

PresMuffley wrote:By 'campaign' he is referring to not only Saban's comments but also the ADL. What constitutes a campaign in your view? How do you feel Ellison's words or, more importantly, his actions have been fairly critiqued? Should questioning U.S. policy towards Israel automatically render one subject to such skepticism?

And although Glenn doesn't specifically address my concerns regarding the DNC and the left of the party in that article, he does so here:
https://theintercept.com/2017/02/24/key-question-about-dnc-race-why-did-white-house-recruit-perez-to-run-against-ellison/

As for your opinion on Greenwald as a journalist, I feel it is best to keep in mind that he is at heart an attorney, then a journalist. He's not coming at this in a traditional manner. You may not like his style, which I am fine with, but he is writing for you as well - because ultimately we are all in this together.


I think precision is important in journalism. So if you put out an article about a vicious smear campaign, there ought to be a pretty clear smear campaign there. If we have to debate the meaning of the word "campaign" - you've probably overegged your piece.

I think we've already covered the issue of how Ellison's words were critiqued. I'd argue that the ADL's objections were fair (though I don't personally share their conclusion) and Saban's wasn't. To the extent that anything approaching a campaign did exist, It doesn't appear to have been a vicious smear, but rather a justifiable reaction to the candidate's real baggage.

But of course none of the above matters, because what Greenwald is really doing here is picking at two scabs. He's trying to exacerbate the feeling of being treated unfairly among the Sanders wing of the party, and he's trying to use Israel to harden the split within the Democratic Party.

As for Greenwald being more of a lawyer than a journalist...I agree. But he's trading in journalism - and frankly, his willingness to abandon precision in order to sell his world view is troubling. I suppose I get why he's such a respected figure among those who already agree with him, but please refrain from linking to his work as proof of anything anymore. Otherwise you'll open yourself to spending hours untangling the opinions from the facts.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby PresMuffley » 09 Mar 2017, 18:42

Diamond Dog wrote:Ah, another one.

Carry on oh peerless one.


I'll try not to scowl upon you too hardly from way up here in this glorious ivory tower. But I must admit, it will be challenging.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby PresMuffley » 09 Mar 2017, 18:47

Davey the Fat Boy wrote: you'll open yourself to spending hours untangling the opinions from the facts.


I don't mind that at all. This is fun.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby neville harp » 10 Mar 2017, 10:24

Diamond Dog wrote:I can only suggest you check the FB thread The Prof started about us - and see how well you did in that me old china.


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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Still Baron » 10 Mar 2017, 12:26

Who knew that Letterman is Michael Stipe's big brother?
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take5_d_shorterer wrote:If John Bonham simply didn't listen to enough Tommy Johnson or Blind Willie Mctell, that's his doing.

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby neville harp » 10 Mar 2017, 12:27

He hasn't got that booger-looking septum piercing tho'.
Diamond Dog wrote:I can only suggest you check the FB thread The Prof started about us - and see how well you did in that me old china.


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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby PresMuffley » 10 Mar 2017, 19:02

Live feed of the 'Rally Against Dakota Access & Keystone XL Pipelines' at Lafayette Square in DC on C-SPAN2 right now. TABOO from Black Eyed Peas is performing for the crowd. Glad I'm not there.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Deebank » 10 Mar 2017, 19:06

Could be worse.
It could be Will I Am.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby PresMuffley » 11 Mar 2017, 12:57

Jacobin attempting to keep things in perspective regarding W's new image:

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/03/george-bush-president-trump-iraq-war-katrina-torture/
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