President Donald J. Trump

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Davey the Fat Boy
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 08 Mar 2017, 15:05

PresMuffley wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote: That's one guy. We went over this.


One guy, but as Greenwald writes:
one would have to be indescribably naïve about the ways of Washington to believe that such a vicious denunciation by one of the party’s most influential billionaire funders had no effect at all.


Even if it did, Greenwald is still guilty of overstating the case.

I'll remind you again: Ellison won 200 out of 435 votes after forcing a second round of ballotting. So whatever effect the issue had, it clearly didn't cause mass shunning. Perhaps he would have won otherwise. Perhaps he wouldn't. But it frankly isn't worth the conjecture as it was a legitimate issue, based on things he actually said.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby PresMuffley » 08 Mar 2017, 16:46

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Then you read it wrong.

It should read like, "I'm fine with a guy on a message board describing Graham (and the Democrats) in that way, but I'd prefer that those who put forth their words as journalism refrain from such manipulations."


As we have established, he is an opinion journalist. I like to think the majority of his readers are savvy enough to realize when he is reporting news and when he is expressing his personal view.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Diamond Dog » 08 Mar 2017, 16:49

PresMuffley wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Then you read it wrong.

It should read like, "I'm fine with a guy on a message board describing Graham (and the Democrats) in that way, but I'd prefer that those who put forth their words as journalism refrain from such manipulations."


As we have established, he is an opinion journalist. I like to think the majority of his readers are savvy enough to realize when he is reporting news and when he is expressing his personal view.



Do you now think he should make that distinction himself, just so he can't be misquoted/misunderstood?

Or is it possible that he quite likes that blurring of the edge, so he can jump ship either way depending on what suits later?
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby PresMuffley » 08 Mar 2017, 16:50

Davey the Fat Boy wrote: it was a legitimate issue, based on things he actually said.


What do you feel Ellison has said that warrants such an accusation from Saban?
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby PresMuffley » 08 Mar 2017, 16:54

Diamond Dog wrote:Do you now think he should make that distinction himself, just so he can't be misquoted/misunderstood?


How so? By adding a IMO any time he expresses his view?

Or is it possible that he quite likes that blurring of the edge, so he can jump ship either way depending on what suits later?


I don't feel that is the case at all.
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Davey the Fat Boy
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 08 Mar 2017, 17:30

PresMuffley wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Then you read it wrong.

It should read like, "I'm fine with a guy on a message board describing Graham (and the Democrats) in that way, but I'd prefer that those who put forth their words as journalism refrain from such manipulations."


As we have established, he is an opinion journalist. I like to think the majority of his readers are savvy enough to realize when he is reporting news and when he is expressing his personal view.


It's a nice thought.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby PresMuffley » 08 Mar 2017, 17:32

I'll be the first to admit that not everyone has my reading comprehension ability.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 08 Mar 2017, 17:36

PresMuffley wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote: it was a legitimate issue, based on things he actually said.


What do you feel Ellison has said that warrants such an accusation from Saban?


I didn't defend Saban's specific comments. I said that Ellison's comments (as cited by the ADL) were a legitimate cause for debate. The fact that one guy jumped to an extreme conclusion over them isn't really that surprising or worthy of that much sturm and drang.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 08 Mar 2017, 17:37

PresMuffley wrote:I'll be the first to admit that not everyone has my reading comprehension ability.


Not being facetious... No. They don't.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby PresMuffley » 08 Mar 2017, 19:18

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:I didn't defend Saban's specific comments. I said that Ellison's comments (as cited by the ADL) were a legitimate cause for debate. The fact that one guy jumped to an extreme conclusion over them isn't really that surprising or worthy of that much sturm and drang.


I didn't mean to insinuate that you were defending Saban's comments. But I have trouble understanding (what appears to be) your faith in the ADL. The speech cited in their article entitled: "Speech Raises New Doubts about Rep. Ellison’s Ability to Represent Traditional Democratic Support for Israel" (doesn't the title say it all?) raises concerns about Ellison's loyalty to Israel, and rightly so perhaps, since he was indeed questioning US policy towards Israel. The full speech is here:
http://www.investigativeproject.org/5713/full-audio-of-keith-ellison-remarks-at-esam#

Questioning policy towards Israel and being an anti-Semite are two vastly different worldviews, and Ellison has displayed neither of the latter. And again, this isn't just "one guy", this is the single-largest funder of the Democratic party & the Clinton campaign, a guy who said he has one issue: Israel.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 08 Mar 2017, 20:22

Well first off - let's dispense with discussing whether Ellison is an anti-Semite or not. I don't believe that he is and don't think it ought to be considered at issue. From the POV of the ADL (orcanyone else) Ellison doesn't have to be accused of antisemitism for his stance on Israel to be a legitimate issue.

But circling back to the ADL, Jonathan Grenblatt originally made a statement in support of Ellison, which he rescinded upon hearing the 2010 speech in question. The passage that he cites as disqualifying was:

“The United States foreign policy in the Middle East is governed by what is good or bad through a country of 7 million people. A region of 350 million all turns on a country of 7 million. Does that make sense? Is that logic? Right? When the Americans who trace their roots back to those 350 million get involved, everything changes.”

His statement upon rescinding his prior endorsement was:

"Rep. Ellison’s remarks are both deeply disturbing and disqualifying.His words imply that U.S. foreign policy is based on religiously or national origin-based special interests rather than simply on America’s best interests. Additionally, whether intentional or not, his words raise the specter of age-old stereotypes about Jewish control of our government, a poisonous myth that may persist in parts of the world where intolerance thrives, but that has no place in open societies like the U.S. These comments sharply contrast with the Democratic National Committee platform position, which states: “A strong and secure Israel is vital to the United States because we share overarching strategic interests and the common values of democracy, equality, tolerance, and pluralism.”

You don't have to agree with Greenblatt to concede the legitimacy of his concerns. Further it does not require a "vicious smear campaign" for folks in the party to conclude that they simply didn't want the potential distraction of having the DNC chair's past statements forcing the whole party into a debate on Israel via his presence.

Those are valid viewpoints that could be held by people who do not question Ellison's feelings about Jewish people one bit.

I might add - it's kind of a rich accusation coming from the likes of Greenwald given that his argument was that the Democratic Party should have nominated someone other than Clinton due to her perceived negative baggage.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby PresMuffley » 08 Mar 2017, 22:53

As it might be helpful, just to be clear, my position on the ADL before & after this incident has been the same. I feel they are simply a Zionist front organization masquerading as champions of freedom, tolerance & equality.

Regarding Greenwald's position on Ellison, I don't get the impression that he considers him to be devoid of baggage, as he is quite obviously a black man, and a Muslim, which is enough baggage for anyone in Washington. Nor does he seem to believe that had Ellison been elected a sharp shift in policy would have occurred. This is my view as well. His point in writing about this was to show just how afraid the Democrats are to allow the left-wing of the party to gain any sort of traction, even in such a minor manner as becoming DNC chair
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 09 Mar 2017, 02:21

PresMuffley wrote:As it might be helpful, just to be clear, my position on the ADL before & after this incident has been the same. I feel they are simply a Zionist front organization masquerading as champions of freedom, tolerance & equality.


I think it's pretty clear from his work that Greenwald comes from a similar place. That's partially why it's so hard to take him at face value when he reports a "vicious smear" and then doesn't bother to fully substantiate the charge. Opinion journalism is great when one fully agrees with the opinion of the journalist. But it isn't as useful to those outside of that loop.

PresMuffley wrote:Regarding Greenwald's position on Ellison, I don't get the impression that he considers him to be devoid of baggage, as he is quite obviously a black man, and a Muslim, which is enough baggage for anyone in Washington. Nor does he seem to believe that had Ellison been elected a sharp shift in policy would have occurred. This is my view as well. His point in writing about this was to show just how afraid the Democrats are to allow the left-wing of the party to gain any sort of traction, even in such a minor manner as becoming DNC chair


That's clearly the agenda at work. But he was not forthright about it. Instead he hyperbolized the question about whether Ellison carried too much baggage as a "vicious smear" in order to load the deck. Again...not the way I prefer journalists to handle multidimensional subjects like this.

On the susbstance of the "left wing can't get traction" complaint - I just don't see the argument holding water. Ellison won 200 of 435 votes ALL FROM PARTY INSIDERS. He now has a seat at the table with Perez. How exactly is that no traction? Do you honestly expect the majority of the party to simply walk off of the stage?
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 09 Mar 2017, 02:42

Fresh Doubts about Russian ‘Hacking’
March 8, 2017

Exclusive: The gauzy allegations of Russia “hacking” the Democrats to elect Donald Trump just got hazier with WikiLeaks’ new revelations about CIA cyber-spying and the capability to pin the blame on others, reports Robert Parry.

By Robert Parry

WikiLeaks’ disclosure of documents revealing CIA cyber-spying capabilities underscores why much more skepticism should have been applied to the U.S. intelligence community’s allegations about Russia “hacking” last year’s American presidential election. It turns out that the CIA maintains a library of foreign malware that could be used to pin the blame for a “hack” on another intelligence service…
https://consortiumnews.com/2017/03/08/f ... n-hacking/

Stellar breakdown and a further debunking of the dangerous propaganda that it was Russia! Russia! Russia!
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 09 Mar 2017, 02:59

Does the CIA have malware that causes multiple members of an idiot Presidential candidate's campaign to lie about meetings with emissaries of a foreign government?
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby PresMuffley » 09 Mar 2017, 03:22

I guess we'll never agree on what is and what isn't a vicious smear. Unsubstantiated claims of anti-semitism about a Muslim Congressman from a billionaire Democrat party elite to a crowd of other elites at the Brookings Institute is to my mind a vilification.

The seat granted to Ellison, while perhaps being a kind gesture on Perez's part, is from my view just throwing a bone to the left in the hopes that it will somehow symbolize a desire for progressive thinking and party unity. The position holds no power whatsoever.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 09 Mar 2017, 03:38

I can't hear you! :D
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 09 Mar 2017, 04:07

PresMuffley wrote:I guess we'll never agree on what is and what isn't a vicious smear. Unsubstantiated claims of anti-semitism about a Muslim Congressman from a billionaire Democrat party elite to a crowd of other elites at the Brookings Institute is to my mind a vilification.


It may indeed be. What it isn't is a smear campaign...which is how Greenwald chose to sell it.

PresMuffley wrote:The seat granted to Ellison, while perhaps being a kind gesture on Perez's part, is from my view just throwing a bone to the left in the hopes that it will somehow symbolize a desire for progressive thinking and party unity. The position holds no power whatsoever.


If Perez wants to keep progressives in the tent, he'll value Ellison's perspectives. If he doesn't value them, he won't. But on exactly what basis do progressives feel that they are entitled to majority power within the party?
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 09 Mar 2017, 04:08

Jimbo wrote:I can't hear you! :D


It wouldn't matter if you did! You'd still believe the same dumb bullshit.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Charlie O. » 09 Mar 2017, 04:12




(The "grandmother" mention at the very end refers to something the previous guest said.)
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