President Donald J. Trump

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Tactful Cactus » 09 Nov 2017, 17:52

It does give you a real appreciation for Americas power on the global stage when you see hardened leaders and politicians co-towing to this provincial moron. It's a reminder if you ever needed one of Americas influence despite the weak leadership.

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Snarfyguy » 09 Nov 2017, 17:59

Jimbo wrote:You might want to know that Trump is not doing too bad of a job here in Asia on this trip. He hasn't been overly obnoxious and, well, he may come away with some deals or something. He seems to be acting pretty presidential.


Daily Kos: "Trump doesn't talk to the press—because China told him to shut up

Donald Trump is tougher at a distance. His speech on North Korea notably dropped the mentions of “little Rocketman” and “fire and fury” once Trump himself was in artillery range. Arriving in China, Trump replaced the vocal criticism of Chinese trading practices with equally loud praise, saying “I don’t blame China” for gaining the upper hand in trade deals and “I give China great credit.”

Asked about this sudden turnaround by reporters, Trump said … nothing. Because Trump didn’t allow reporters to ask any questions."

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/1 ... #read-more
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Snarfyguy » 13 Nov 2017, 16:28

Image
Jimbo wrote:Look, all I know is pretty much what I get from Robert Parry over at Consortium News.

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 13 Nov 2017, 18:24

Snarfyguy wrote:Image


This joke is a lie.

Media: lying - largely true, especially by omission - the shit they don't tell you, man!
Mueller: lying - probably true, that's how prosecutors win
Comey: lying - The FBI lying? :lol:
Obama: lying - sure and war mongering and selling out to Wall Street.
Clinton: lying - :lol: :lol: :lol:
Sex assault accusers: lying - probably not but could happen.
Climate Scientists: lying - Probably not.
Doctors: lying - probably not but a large majority prefer single payer.
Mother of slain soldier: lying - no, but when Trump said that that is what her son signed up for that was true too. If we only knew what the fuck he was doing in Niger …
Intelligence services: lying Never! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Putin: lying Sure, he's a politician but he didn't fuck with the US election, certainly not like we fucked with it ourselves and nowhere nearly like we did in Russia. It wan't Putin who beat HRC. HRC beat HRC.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby toomanyhatz » 13 Nov 2017, 19:34

Jimbo wrote:Media: lying - largely true, especially by omission - the shit they don't tell you, man!


This is not a good defense of Trump and probably means he's even worse than we think.

Mueller: lying - probably true, that's how prosecutors win


Err, no - it's not. I'll let others with more knowledge about it than I fill you in on exactly how prosecutors win. But I'm pretty sure inventing stuff from whole cloth is generally not a good strategy.

Comey: lying - The FBI lying? :lol:


Nice rhetorical device, but there's no more substance to it than "do you really trust the FBI?" It's hearsay. A lie has to be proven, not just inferred by reputation.

Obama: lying - sure and war mongering and selling out to Wall Street.


Even if true - and your accusation is drastically oversimplified - Trump has done a million times worse. And again, there IS NOT A PRESIDENT IN HISTORY who has not been responsible for MANY innocent lives being taken. Not one. Obama is no different. Trump is no different. President Bernie would have been no different.

Clinton: lying - :lol: :lol: :lol:


Again, lots of inference. Trump's lies have been proven, again and again and again. Show me a single unbiased source that documents the lies of both and concludes that there's any comparison.

Sex assault accusers: lying - probably not but could happen.


What motivation has he given you to take his side on any issues of sexual harassment? He has not been charged with anything specific, but he has certainly displayed attitudes that create, as they say, bad optics. The POSSIBILITY that some of them MIGHT be lying certainly doesn't make any kind of case for him.

Climate Scientists: lying - Probably not.


This is quite big of you to admit. :roll:

Doctors: lying - probably not but a large majority prefer single payer.


Meaning what? They have no credibility because they don't voluntarily agree to treat people for free? This is an argument you use a lot, and again it's a spectacularly weak one. Proving motivation to lie does not prove a lie.

Mother of slain soldier: lying - no, but when Trump said that that is what her son signed up for that was true too. If we only knew what the fuck he was doing in Niger …


So he told one truth in a pack of lies to the family of a soldier who'd given his life to serve his country, presumably NOT to be left for dead. So he's not so bad, right? Here's where you scream out "BENGAZI!" I'm pretty sure Hillary did not engage in any wars of words with dead soldier's families. And here's where I vomit.

Intelligence services: lying Never! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Again with the inference. I don't necessarily trust them either but if even THEY don't want to defend him, combined with everything else, I'm more likely to take their side.

Putin: lying Sure, he's a politician but he didn't fuck with the US election, certainly not like we fucked with it ourselves and nowhere nearly like we did in Russia. It wan't Putin who beat HRC. HRC beat HRC.


Again, your leap of logic skips a few steps.

Statement one - Oh, so that's a viable excuse for Trump and Putin, but the same can be said for Hillary, and - LOCK HER UP!!

Statement two - A lot of people are saying he DID fuck with the US election and you give MANY reasons why SOME of them MIGHT be lying. So what's your evidence that he didn't? What is that based on?

Statement three - "WE fucked with it? Don't know about you, but all I did was vote. I didn't fuck with ANYTHING. What's this "we" stuff?

Statement four - So we fucked with Russia's election? Not sure what you're saying here. Who's we, and what exactly are you accusing us of?

Statement five - Can't both be true? Is there a single person here (or anywhere) that has directly said it's all Russia's fault, and Clinton ran a perfect, winning campaign? I know I haven't.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Snarfyguy » 13 Nov 2017, 20:17

toomanyhatz wrote:A lot of people are saying [Putin] DID fuck with the US election and you give MANY reasons why SOME of them MIGHT be lying. So what's your evidence that he didn't? What is that based on?

Furthermore, what's Trump's evidence that he didn't? How is it he's able to claim first-hand knowledge that no one in his campaign was in touch with the Kremlin (especially in light of the apparent fact that that's not even the case) during the relevant time period? If he says there was no collusion at his direction, that's one thing, and I might be inclined to take it at face value, but how does he claim to know what people were doing independently of him?
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Jimbo wrote:Look, all I know is pretty much what I get from Robert Parry over at Consortium News.

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 13 Nov 2017, 21:35

I guess I am frustrated by how we are still not over the Russia thing, how readily we are still, after more than a year of this ridiculousness, still supposed to accept the joke's punchline because of course Putin lied to Trump. Putin lies about everything. Russia is a country filled with troll farms, its raison d'etre is to meddle, to fuck with our democracy, to sew dissension. Take the easy, unassuming, un-skeptical way Colbert and Bill Maher (I count them as media) still use Russia as a punchline. Of course Russia has spies but time after time I have shown you much counter-evidence, shadows of doubt in case after case how the meddling case is bogus. Bots, stolen emails, even Trump associates visiting Russia, so far Meuller has shown you nothing. When he does it will probably be just as easy to debunk. You fail to see that this has all the hallmarks of a a hoax, a disinformation campaign morphed into a witch hunt perpetrated by our intelligence agents. This is an American op played on Americans it's purpose being a dangerous geopolitical war move preparing you for the soon to come war with Russia. Your minds will be primed and ready to fight. Think aluminum tubes. They pushed that lie down your throat to make you hate Saaddam and now they have you hating Putin. That Obama and Hillary and co. did similar shit with Russia should tell you that dealing with Russia - up until after HRC's loss - was business as usual. Snarf's joke is not funny because at it's root is war.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Snarfyguy » 13 Nov 2017, 21:45

Jimbo wrote:I guess I am frustrated by how we are still not over the Russia thing, how readily we are still, after more than a year of this ridiculousness, still supposed to accept the joke's punchline because of course Putin lied to Trump. Putin lies about everything. Russia is a country filled with troll farms, its raison d'etre is to meddle, to fuck with our democracy, to sew dissension. Take the easy, unassuming, un-skeptical way Colbert and Bill Maher (I count them as media) still use Russia as a punchline. Of course Russia has spies but time after time I have shown you much counter-evidence, shadows of doubt in case after case how the meddling case is bogus. Bots, stolen emails, even Trump associates visiting Russia, so far Meuller has shown you nothing. When he does it will probably be just as easy to debunk. You fail to see that this has all the hallmarks of a a hoax, a disinformation campaign morphed into a witch hunt perpetrated by our intelligence agents. This is an American op played on Americans it's purpose being a dangerous geopolitical war move preparing you for the soon to come war with Russia. Your minds will be primed and ready to fight. Think aluminum tubes. They pushed that lie down your throat to make you hate Saaddam and now they have you hating Putin. That Obama and Hillary and co. did similar shit with Russia should tell you that dealing with Russia, up until after HRC's loss, was business as usual. Snarf's joke is not funny because at it's root is war.

Yeah, except everything you wrote above is either false or irrelevant.

Your argument that "we do it too" is particularly unimpressive!

Jimbo wrote:[S]o far Meuller has shown you nothing.


Indictments? Guilty pleas? That's nothing?
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 13 Nov 2017, 21:57

Snarfyguy wrote:
Your argument that "we do it too" is particularly unimpressive!


Image

We did do it. And we did it in Ukraine. We are doing it in Venezuela. How many other countries is America fucking with their governments? It's what America does.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iran ... p_d%27état

Covert United States involvement in regime change
1949 Syrian coup d'état
1949–1953 Albania
1951–56 Tibet
1953 Iranian coup d'état
1954 Guatemalan coup d'état
1956–57 Syria crisis
1957–58 Indonesian rebellion
1959–2000 Cuba, assassination attempts on Fidel Castro
1959 Cambodian "Bangkok Plot"
1960 Congo coup
1961 Cuba, Bay of Pigs Invasion
1961 Cuba, Operation Mongoose
1961 Dominican Republic
1963 South Vietnamese coup
1964 Bolivian coup d'état
1964 Brazilian coup d'état
1966 Ghana coup d'état
1970 Cambodian coup
1971 Bolivian coup d'état
1970–73 Chile
1979–89 Afghanistan, Operation Cyclone
1981–87 Nicaragua, Contras
1982 Chad
1991 Haiti
1996 Iraq coup attempt
2001 Afghanistan
2004 Haiti
2011 Libyan civil war
2011–2017 Syria

The 1953 Iranian coup d'état, known in Iran as the 28 Mordad coup d'état (Persian: کودتای ۲۸ مرداد‎‎), was the overthrow of the democratically elected Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh in favour of strengthening the monarchical rule of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi on 19 August 1953, orchestrated by the United Kingdom (under the name "Operation Boot") and the United States (under the name TPAJAX Project[5] or "Operation Ajax").
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Snarfyguy » 13 Nov 2017, 22:20

Jimbo wrote:We did do it. And we did it in Ukraine. We are doing it in Venezuela. How many other countries is America fucking with their governments? It's what America does.

I'm aware of the tradition of the CIA meddling in overseas elections and so forth, but if you're proposing an equivalence between that history and the 2016 election, then you're explicitly conceding that there *was* interference at the Kremlin's behest.

But how exactly does our subversion of other nations' political processes excuse the conduct Mueller is looking for? By what mechanism of ethics or jurisprudence do actions in Column A allow actions in Column B to be considered justified, to you? Did we have a surplus of guilt that was somehow wiped out by bad actions taken against us last year?

Is it just some sort of abstract notion of Karma, that we can't complain because we've been complicit in bad actions elsewhere? If not that, then what, precisely, are you saying?
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 13 Nov 2017, 22:34

Snarfyguy wrote:
Jimbo wrote:We did do it. And we did it in Ukraine. We are doing it in Venezuela. How many other countries is America fucking with their governments? It's what America does.

I'm aware of the tradition of the CIA meddling in overseas elections and so forth, but if you're proposing an equivalence between that history and the 2016 election, then you're explicitly conceding that there *was* interference at the Kremlin's behest.

But how exactly does our subversion of other nations' political processes excuse the conduct Mueller is looking for? By what mechanism of ethics or jurisprudence do actions in Column A allow actions in Column B to be considered justified, to you? Is it just some sort of abstract notion of Karma, that we can't complain because we've been complicit in bad actions elsewhere? If not that, then what, precisely, are you saying?


I'm saying what you are being told by the media is bullshit, lies to make you think a certain way.

If you read that Wiki bit about Iran you will see the op was multi-pronged with a lot of shit thrown in, newspapers bought off, false flag rioters to make the Iranians think their president was a communist, reminiscent of what we are doing to Putin today. How is it that while I find much credible information on the internet arguing my point, If I go to Democratic Underground I see yours. But if you go to the mainstream media, the late night comics, CNN, NYT, and so on, there is this uniformity that pretty much argues only your side? That is what I meant by how they omit information. While A says this about Russia B says this. But no, you only get POV A.

I also heard that we were blessed with a few years post Vietnam, post that commission that dressed down the CIA (I forget the senator's name) where the CIA pretty much behaved itself. That is why it is hard to believe we are at it again. But we are!
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 13 Nov 2017, 23:06

Well, well, well. How timely!

Mocking Trump Doesn’t Prove Russia’s Guilt
November 13, 2017

Exclusive: President Trump is getting mocked for “trusting” Vladimir Putin’s denial about “meddling” in U.S. politics — and not accepting Official Washington’s groupthink — but ridicule isn’t evidence, writes ex-CIA analyst Ray McGovern.


https://consortiumnews.com/2017/11/13/m ... ias-guilt/
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Snarfyguy » 13 Nov 2017, 23:28

Jimbo wrote:Well, well, well. How timely!

Mocking Trump Doesn’t Prove Russia’s Guilt
November 13, 2017

Exclusive: President Trump is getting mocked for “trusting” Vladimir Putin’s denial about “meddling” in U.S. politics — and not accepting Official Washington’s groupthink — but ridicule isn’t evidence, writes ex-CIA analyst Ray McGovern.


https://consortiumnews.com/2017/11/13/m ... ias-guilt/

Wow, they really blew the roof off that story! :roll:

Where did anyone ever argue that Mocking Trump proves Russia's Guilt?
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby toomanyhatz » 13 Nov 2017, 23:45

Jimbo, a lot of your arguments use your interpretation of people's motivation to lie as evidence. So since you keep warning us that we're risking war with Russia here, perhaps you could explain our motivation to piss off Russia? Or theirs to go to war with us?

I mean, I GET Trump's motivation - he's a child. But how you get from American "meddling" to World War Three I must admit is still a mystery to me.

Whatever any of us may think of Putin, he doesn't strike me as the type to press a button at a perceived insult. Kim Jung Un, on the other hand...
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 13 Nov 2017, 23:49

Snarfyguy wrote:
Jimbo wrote:Well, well, well. How timely!

Mocking Trump Doesn’t Prove Russia’s Guilt
November 13, 2017

Exclusive: President Trump is getting mocked for “trusting” Vladimir Putin’s denial about “meddling” in U.S. politics — and not accepting Official Washington’s groupthink — but ridicule isn’t evidence, writes ex-CIA analyst Ray McGovern.


https://consortiumnews.com/2017/11/13/m ... ias-guilt/

Wow, they really blew the roof off that story! :roll:

Where did anyone ever argue that Mocking Trump proves Russia's Guilt?


So… you are convinced of Russia's guilt. Just want to get that established because I'm a teeny bit unsure of where you stand. You do acknowledge the US/CIA does meddle, does collude, does rig elections, does overthrow governments but, I assume, you think Russia is playing the same game against us. Even when the ex-CIA writer says how the CIA itself is unsure of Russia's guilt and that only a few Washington insiders say they are sure, as does Bill Maher and Stephen Colbert. And so Ray McGovern is lying, is that what you think?
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 14 Nov 2017, 00:14

toomanyhatz wrote:Jimbo, a lot of your arguments use your interpretation of people's motivation to lie as evidence. So since you keep warning us that we're risking war with Russia here, perhaps you could explain our motivation to piss off Russia? Or theirs to go to war with us?

I mean, I GET Trump's motivation - he's a child. But how you get from American "meddling" to World War Three I must admit is still a mystery to me.

Whatever any of us may think of Putin, he doesn't strike me as the type to press a button at a perceived insult. Kim Jung Un, on the other hand...


With our missiles and troops surrounding Russia, on its borders, what other reasonable conclusion could Putin make? Look what almost happened in Cuba in the 60s. We had never been as close to nuclear war until now. And Russia was only reacting to our missiles in Turkey on the Russian border. Now we have even more and Russia has no missiles on our borders or in Cuba today.

Why are we doing this? We want a Russian government that is more like our puppet, like we had with Yeltsin. Ah those were the days … for us! The countries towards which we are most belligerent, countries that we've fucked up, were the ones which didn't follow our rules, countries with an independent streak who wanted to rule themselves their way. Both Saddam and Qadaffi wanted to sell their oil in currencies that were not US dollars. BOOM! Mossadeq wanted to nationalize their oil. Guatemala wanted to redistribute United Fruits land to the peasants. And so on. We think with NATO at our side we can invade Russia and do what we did to all those other countries and get the resources. Right now we are insulting Russians with these stupid jokes and idiotic charges. That's how fights start. Amazingly Putin has kept his cool. Trump - in this case - is keeping his cool. Why we can't work with Russia, be friends, defeat ISIS together share shit, I don't know. That was one of the few good things that Trump campaigned on.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby toomanyhatz » 14 Nov 2017, 00:52

Jimbo wrote:We think with NATO at our side we can invade Russia and do what we did to all those other countries and get the resources.


Oh, I thought you were saying we'd piss off Putin and he'd drop a bomb on us - not that we'd invade Russia.

Seriously - do you REALLY believe this? Why are we wasting precious resources in Afghanistan, then, if Russia's the big game?

God, your characterization of Trump as the "voice of reason" is off-base in more ways than I can count. I don't even see any of your buddies at Consortium News putting that particular theory forward...
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Snarfyguy » 14 Nov 2017, 22:12

Jimbo wrote:So… you are convinced of Russia's guilt. Just want to get that established because I'm a teeny bit unsure of where you stand. You do acknowledge the US/CIA does meddle, does collude, does rig elections, does overthrow governments but, I assume, you think Russia is playing the same game against us. Even when the ex-CIA writer says how the CIA itself is unsure of Russia's guilt and that only a few Washington insiders say they are sure, as does Bill Maher and Stephen Colbert. And so Ray McGovern is lying, is that what you think?

No, that's the wrong question. I don't think he's "lying." It's an opinion piece and your guy appears to be saying (forgive me not making it all the way through; it's long) "show us the evidence."

I think that's getting the cart way before the horse; why would Mueller start disclosing evidence in an investigation that's currently in progress? That's not how this stuff works. To the extent he has evidence, it will be produced in some sort of adversarial proceeding, not blabbed to the press beforehand.

I don't know or really care what those TV hosts think, but there's no disagreement among top-level intelligence dudes that Russia attempted to manipulate the outcome of last year's election, notwithstanding what a "former CIA analyst" has to say about it.

The fact of the matter is you'd prefer to believe that guy, I suppose just because he rejects the received wisdom on the matter.

Jimbo wrote:I'm saying what you are being told by the media is bullshit, lies to make you think a certain way.


In a broad sense, I suspect there's some truth to this claim, although I reject the notion of a top-down conspiracy designed to make me want the U.S. to go to war with Russia because Putin's feelings got hurt. The media just wants to preserve the status quo so I'll buy stuff on credit.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby bobzilla77 » 15 Nov 2017, 00:43

I'm more convinced than ever that Jimbo is here at the pleasure of the Russian government.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 15 Nov 2017, 07:03

.
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