President Donald J. Trump

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Sneelock
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Sneelock » 14 Jul 2017, 23:35

I get the Katrina vanden Heuvel/Glenn Greenwald argument. they still haven't won me over but I get where they're coming from. Let's not throw US/Russia relations back to the cold war by jumping to any conclusions. okay. fine.

Here's a great article on the New Republic website.
https://newrepublic.com/article/143586/ ... -syndicate
here, the writer wants us to regard TRUMP's business ties in Russia WAY before he was ever running for anything and I think the article makes a good case that there are a WHOLE lot of reasons TRUMP doesn't want us looking into this stuff that don't have diddly dick to do with throwing US/Russia relations back to the cold war.

another matter I need to discuss is all the brain cells I've destroyed by trying to match up the Sean Hannity type reasoning that what Hillary did was just as bad as what TRUMP did. First of all, we all know Sean's head is going to explode if he keeps excusing TRUMP's behavior by comparing it to Hillary & I'm not going to clean that mess up.

furthermore, my head hurts and I just realized that this is a feeling I should get used to. this is the new Normal.

WAY back in the George W. Bush days I got used to the "yeah, well what about...." rhetorical ninja move. I would point out the fact that there were no WMD's in Iraq and my debate opponent would reply with "yeah, well what about Nancy Pelosi's facelifts" or "How's Air America Doing?". After all these years, you'd think they'd be getting better at this sort of thing but they really aren't. They sure think they have though. In fact, they think they get to set the ground rules for every debate they have. I'm not allowed to get mad at what TRUMP did about (something) because I didn't say anything (according to them) when Obama did something else!

Now, after listening to my friendly neighborhood Republicans parroting Sean Hannity that Hillary is just as bad as TRUMP with no intention of admitting TRUMP did something wrong - I am truly tuckered out. It is SO damned normal now for them to bang those square pegs into those round holes and puff out their chests like they sure showed ME a thing or two.

comparing what HRC did in Russia to everybody in this Admin swearing on a stack of bibles that they've never had anything to do with Russia - then us finding out, in one admission after another that they most certainly do -...
it's like they'll never be beaten in an argument ever again because they have a "get out of jail free" card or something.


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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 15 Jul 2017, 01:58

Classic Rock Sneelock wrote: excusing TRUMP's behavior by comparing it to Hillary.


A pretty good reason why is because much of the hacking and "collusion," etc. happened during the campaign, i.e., the Steele vs the Donald Jr. brouhaha. If Trump is in trouble now for doing something wrong during the campaign then if Clinton did something similarly troubling during the campaign it's fair discussion game.

But my beef is more with how the US is spiraling downward into neo-McCarthyism, blaming/scapegoating Russia for it's woes, such as the reason we now have Trump as president: RUSSIA! And while the people need to check themselves for anti-Russia biases the mainstream media ain't helping.

JULY 13, 2017
Mass Arrests of Protesters: Outrageous in Russia, Barely Worth Mentioning in US
BY ADAM JOHNSON

Major media’s relative lack of interest in the mass arrests by Metro DC police on Inauguration Day is a fact noted by activists and journalists since the incident almost six months ago. One way to measure the dearth of coverage is to compare the attention paid to comparable protester arrests in Russia last month.

On June 12, over 1,700 Russians throughout the country were arrested for “unauthorized protests” in opposition to President Vladimir Putin and government corruption. “Dozens”—including opposition leader Alexei Navalny—were kept in jail longer than a day, but the vast majority were let go immediately. (Navalny, as well as some others, got between 15–30 days in jail.)

More than 200 Americans were arrested on January 20 after “rioting” broke out in downtown Washington, DC, in the hours leading up to and after President Donald Trump’s inauguration. Some were let go over the next few weeks, but the bulk of the 200+ still face 10–80 years in federal prison for “felony rioting.
http://fair.org/home/mass-arrests-of-pr ... ing-in-us/
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Still Baron » 15 Jul 2017, 02:17

Jimbo wrote:But my beef is more with how the US is spiraling downward into neo-McCarthyism, blaming/scapegoating Russia for it's woes, such as the reason we now have Trump as president: RUSSIA! And while the people need to check themselves for anti-Russia biases the mainstream media ain't helping.


McCarthyism was bad because it used an exaggerated ideological threat to justify silencing Americans for views which they were perfectly free to have and justifying punitive, chilling restrictions on free speech and free thought. Scapegoating Russia for things (exactly what, I honestly don't know) has nothing to do with McCarthyism, except that McCarthyism was predicated on opposition to communism and the Soviet Union was the perceived world leader in communism at that point and our pre-eminent enemy. If the mainstream media exhibits anti-Russian bias, then that is likely because Russia is known for certain strains of a reactionary totalitarianism hostile to modern, western values.

I see you have cited that 200 people were locked up under a rioting statute. Presumably this is intended to highlight some perceived hypocrisy or blindness, but I'm not totally certain. I have no quarrel with someone who wants to argue about the extent to which we have morphed into a police state, because there's an element of truth to it, and our justice system definitely has issues that need to be addressed. But, according to the link, people were locked up and charged with federal crimes. They have a right to reasonable bail, indictment by grand jury, appointment of a lawyer if they cannot afford one, to not be compelled to witness against themselves, to confront their accusers, to compulsory process, to habeas corpus, and to challenge the validity of the "anti-rioting" statute in court before a tribunal which will take any First Amendment arguments seriously.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 15 Jul 2017, 02:25

Seriously Jimbo...stop with the fucking "neo-McCarthyism" shit.

There is no red scare. Nobody is inching towards setting up a blacklist. None of that shit is happening.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 15 Jul 2017, 02:38

Still Baron wrote:
Jimbo wrote:But my beef is more with how the US is spiraling downward into neo-McCarthyism, blaming/scapegoating Russia for it's woes, such as the reason we now have Trump as president: RUSSIA! And while the people need to check themselves for anti-Russia biases the mainstream media ain't helping.


McCarthyism was bad because it used an exaggerated ideological threat to justify silencing Americans for views which they were perfectly free to have and justifying punitive, chilling restrictions on free speech and free thought. Scapegoating Russia for things (exactly what, I honestly don't know) has nothing to do with McCarthyism, except that McCarthyism was predicated on opposition to communism and the Soviet Union was the perceived world leader in communism at that point and our pre-eminent enemy. If the mainstream media exhibits anti-Russian bias, then that is likely because Russia is known for certain strains of a reactionary totalitarianism hostile to modern, western values.

I see you have cited that 200 people were locked up under a rioting statute. Presumably this is intended to highlight some perceived hypocrisy or blindness, but I'm not totally certain. I have no quarrel with someone who wants to argue about the extent to which we have morphed into a police state, because there's an element of truth to it, and our justice system definitely has issues that need to be addressed. But, according to the link, people were locked up and charged with federal crimes. They have a right to reasonable bail, indictment by grand jury, appointment of a lawyer if they cannot afford one, to not be compelled to witness against themselves, to confront their accusers, to compulsory process, to habeas corpus, and to challenge the validity of the "anti-rioting" statute in court before a tribunal which will take any First Amendment arguments seriously.


I highlighted the number because I had no idea the punishments could be so severe, an extra-editorial point, a bonus outrage. Disregard it if you simply regard it as a fact of law and how life is in the big city.

If the mainstream media exhibits anti-Russian bias, then that is likely because Russia is known for certain strains of a reactionary totalitarianism hostile to modern, western values.


Russia is not "known" for this it is perceived to be like this and it is the media which is pushing this perception. Russia today is not Utopia but it isn't anything like it was back in Stalin's time. IMO, the US with its private prisons is more gulag-esque than what I know about Russia, or even China these days. And a similar Soviet-era style reportage is happening where we need Washington-ologists like Robert Parry to analyze the American Pravdas, the NYT and WAPO. It's some topsy-turvy shit happening.
Last edited by Jimbo on 15 Jul 2017, 04:15, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Sneelock » 15 Jul 2017, 03:25

Uh-huh
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-us-r ... compounds/
It'll be interesting to see how the TRUMP admin responds to this.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 15 Jul 2017, 03:37

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Seriously Jimbo...stop with the fucking "neo-McCarthyism" shit.

There is no red scare. Nobody is inching towards setting up a blacklist. None of that shit is happening.


You haven't heard of Prop or Not? Here's a blacklist for you. http://www.propornot.com/p/the-list.html

An Initial Set of Sites That Reliably Echo Russian Propaganda

We have used a combination of manual and automated analysis, including analysis of content, timing, technical indicators, and other reporting, in order to initially identify (“red-flag”) the following as Russian propaganda outlets. We then confirmed our initial assessment by applying whatever criteria we did not originally employ during the red-flag process, and we reevaluate our findings as needed.



4thmedia.org newswithviews.com
4threvolutionarywar.wordpress.com nowtheendbegins.com
abeldanger.net nsnbc.me
activistpost.com off-guardian.org
ahtribune.com oftwominds.com
allnewspipeline.com oilgeopolitics.net
americanlookout.com opednews.com
americasfreedomfighters.com orientalreview.org
amren.com patriotrising.com
amtvmedia.com paulcraigroberts.org
ancient-code.com platosguns.com
anonews.co pravda.ru
anonhq.com pravdareport.com
antiwar.com prepperwebsite.com
asia-pacificresearch.com presstv.com
assassinationscience.com prisonplanet.com
baltimoregazette.com rbth.com
barenakedislam.com readynutrition.com
beforeitsnews.com redflagnews.com
bignuggetnews.com regated.com
bioprepper.com rense.com
blackagendareport.com righton.com
blacklistednews.com rinf.com
christianfightback.com ronpaulinstitute.org
collective-evolution.com rt.com
conservativedailypost.com rumormillnews.com
consortiumnews.com ruptly.tv
corbettreport.com russia-insider.com
cosmicscientist.com sana.sy
countercurrents.org sentinelblog.com
counterinformation.wordpress.com sgtreport.com
dailyoccupation.com shiftfrequency.com
dailystormer.com shtfplan.com
darkmoon.me silentmajoritypatriots.com
darkpolitricks.com silverdoctors.com
davidstockmanscontracorner.com sott.net
dcclothesline.com southfront.org
dcleaks.com sputniknews.com
defenddemocracy.press stormcloudsgathering.com
dennismichaellynch.com strategic-culture.org
disclose.tv superstation95.com
disclosuremedia.net survivopedia.com
drudgereport.com the-newspapers.com
educate-yourself.org theantimedia.org
educateinspirechange.org thecommonsenseshow.com
endingthefed.com thedailybell.com
endoftheamericandream.com thedailysheeple.com
endtime.com theduran.com
eutimes.net theearthchild.co.za
eutopia.buzz theeconomiccollapseblog.com
ewao.com theeventchronicle.com
eyeopening.info thefederalistpapers.org
fellowshipoftheminds.com thefreethoughtproject.com
filmsforaction.org themindunleashed.org
floridasunpost.com thenewsdoctors.com
foreignpolicyjournal.com therebel.media
fourwinds10.net therussophile.org
freedomoutpost.com thesaker.is
gaia.com thesleuthjournal.com
galacticconnection.com thetruenews.info
gangstergovernment.com thetruthseeker.co.uk
gatesofvienna.net theunhivedmind.com
geopolmonitor.com thirdworldtraveler.com
globalresearch.ca toprightnews.com
godlikeproductions.com trueactivist.com
govtslaves.info trunews.com
greanvillepost.com truth-out.org
guccifer2.wordpress.com truthandaction.org
hangthebankers.com truthdig.com
healthnutnews.com truthfeed.com
henrymakow.com truthkings.com
heresyblog.net ufoholic.com
humansarefree.com undergroundworldnews.com
ihavethetruth.com unz.com
in5d.com usanewshome.com
informationclearinghouse.info usapoliticsnow.com
infowars.com usasupreme.com
intellihub.com usdcrisis.com
intersectionproject.eu usslibertyveterans.org
intrepidreport.com vdare.com
investmentresearchdynamics.com veteransnewsnow.com
investmentwatchblog.com veteranstoday.com
jackpineradicals.com vigilantcitizen.com
jamesrgrangerjr.com viralliberty.com
jewsnews.co.il voltairenet.org
journal-neo.org wakeupthesheep.com
katehon.com wakingtimes.com
kingworldnews.com washingtonsblog.com
lewrockwell.com wearechange.org
libertyblitzkrieg.com weshapelife.org
libertywritersnews.com whatdoesitmean.com
makeamericagreattoday.com whatreallyhappened.com
memoryholeblog.com wikileaks.com
mintpressnews.com wikileaks.org
moonofalabama.org wikispooks.com
nakedcapitalism.com worldnewspolitics.com
naturalblaze.com worldpolitics.us
naturalnews.com www.fort-russ.com
newcoldwar.org yournewswire.com
newstarget.com zerohedge.com
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 15 Jul 2017, 03:39

:roll: We need Robert Parry.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 15 Jul 2017, 05:26

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Still Baron » 15 Jul 2017, 13:42

Sorry about my post upthread, it was a bit garbled and unclear. :| written in extreme haste!
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby fire and fueryIre » 15 Jul 2017, 15:24

Still Baron wrote:
Sorry about my post upthread, it was a bit garbled and unclear. :| written in extreme haste!



You are Donald Trump and I claim my US$5!
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 15 Jul 2017, 15:52

An anti-Russian propaganda website exists somewhere on the net - and you liken it to the blacklist?

Are you serious?
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby sloopjohnc » 15 Jul 2017, 16:41

Jimbo wrote:Russia is not "known" for this it is perceived to be like this and it is the media which is pushing this perception. Russia today is not Utopia but it isn't anything like it was back in Stalin's time. IMO, the US with its private prisons is more gulag-esque than what I know about Russia, or even China these days. And a similar Soviet-era style reportage is happening where we need Washington-ologists like Robert Parry to analyze the American Pravdas, the NYT and WAPO. It's some topsy-turvy shit happening.


:lol:

Of course, because Putin will poison you if you critique his government. That makes for lots of positive opinions.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 15 Jul 2017, 17:21

Somewhere in Russia there's a Jimbo clone telling everyone how misunderstood the US is and how completely venal and untrustworthy Putin and the FSB are. He's posting links by his "sources". Telling everyone that they are flirting with WWIII.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Sneelock » 15 Jul 2017, 18:10

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:...a Jimbo clone...

This is how rumors get started, you know.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 15 Jul 2017, 21:45

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:An anti-Russian propaganda website exists somewhere on the net - and you liken it to the blacklist?

Are you serious?


Touché.

There was a dust up over the site since it was cited in the WAPO during the height of the "fake news" storm in the wake of HRC's loss and I was as indignant as sites I frequent i.e., CN, were called out in PropOrNot as Russian propaganda organs. The brouhaha has died down and all those sited mentioned are still putting out their versions of truth - as they see it.

Essentially a hoax[edit]
PropOrNot is a hoax and has been widely debunked. Their sources are not even really cited. This is some classic McCarthyism and has been appropriately called out as such by Matt Taibbi, the New Yorker, FAIR, the Intercept et al. The criticism deserves more detail in the lead. The WaPo article writer did not even bother to defend his rather lazy and paranoid reporting after PropOrNot was widely called out for what it is - the WaPo themselves did not really defend the article either after it was slammed by experts across the board. Nobody even knows who PropOrNot is - it could be one teenager in his basement in Ukraine for all we know. The WaPo story is basically a fake news story. I am an InfoSec professional and the burden of proof for the WaPo story was not even nearly met - not even attempted really. WaPo is basically playing on the gullibility of their readers, and feeding into the kind of groupthink and cheap scapegoating that is dishearteningly common among their Beltway-tethered readership these days - their only readership really left at this point. Rather than retract the article as they should have done, WaPo simply added this note at the beginning of the article in the course of acknowledging the widespread debunking of PropOrNot: "The Post... does not itself vouch for the validity of PropOrNot’s findings." Which leaves us to scratch our heads since nobody would know about this no-name "group" (or perhaps single person) if it weren't for their article. Some journalistic standards and ethics they've got. They basically admitted to publishing fake news, and essentially denied that fact-checking is part of their job as journalists. Wow!

This whole thing does not deserve to be taken seriously. At the very least this should be made more clear in the lead. Zero credibility here folks, sorry. 73.195.132.140 (talk) 21:25, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Prop ... lly_a_hoax
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 15 Jul 2017, 22:03

Anything that could seriously be called "McCarthyism" ("neo" or otherwise) would have to have the power of the government to back it up.

Free speech allows for anyone to call anything propaganda. Even actual propaganda like some of the shit you've posted.

Nobody is coming after your job or threatening to jail you for posting anything. Nor is there any brewing hatred of Russian people (I live in an area with a lot of Americans of Russian descent. Nobody is blaming the election on them).

I honestly think you ought to look at the fact that most of your arguments boil down to the false threats of WWIII and "neo-McCarthyism" and consider the possibility that anyone fearmongering to you along those lines is likely manipulating you.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 16 Jul 2017, 14:41

sloopjohnc wrote:
Jimbo wrote:Russia is not "known" for this it is perceived to be like this and it is the media which is pushing this perception. Russia today is not Utopia but it isn't anything like it was back in Stalin's time. IMO, the US with its private prisons is more gulag-esque than what I know about Russia, or even China these days. And a similar Soviet-era style reportage is happening where we need Washington-ologists like Robert Parry to analyze the American Pravdas, the NYT and WAPO. It's some topsy-turvy shit happening.


:lol:

Of course, because Putin will poison you if you critique his government. That makes for lots of positive opinions.


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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Charlie O. » 16 Jul 2017, 16:35

Never mind this Russia stuff, Jimbo - what do your sources have to say about NASA's child s*x slave colony on Mars?
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 16 Jul 2017, 19:16

Jimbo wrote:
sloopjohnc wrote:
Jimbo wrote:Russia is not "known" for this it is perceived to be like this and it is the media which is pushing this perception. Russia today is not Utopia but it isn't anything like it was back in Stalin's time. IMO, the US with its private prisons is more gulag-esque than what I know about Russia, or even China these days. And a similar Soviet-era style reportage is happening where we need Washington-ologists like Robert Parry to analyze the American Pravdas, the NYT and WAPO. It's some topsy-turvy shit happening.


:lol:

Of course, because Putin will poison you if you critique his government. That makes for lots of positive opinions.




You seem pretty comfortable criticizing our government and visiting sites that (in your opinion) expose the truth.

Why aren't you and your pals afraid of being poisoned?
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