President Donald J. Trump

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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sloopjohnc
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby sloopjohnc » 21 Jun 2018, 17:26

Snarfyguy wrote:Miller and Nielsen are pretty high profile figures these days - that's why I wasn't sure why you were asking.


Jimbo asking who these two people are kinda discredits any comments he might have on the issue - for me anyway.

Jimbo, these two are Torquemada and the executioner as far as current immigration goes.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 21 Jun 2018, 18:07

Snarfyguy wrote:The Obama administration separated immigrant children from accompanying adults in two types of cases: (1) if the child was in danger or (2) if the accompanying adult was being prosecuted.

The Trump administration did not alter these guidelines. What did change, however, is that the Trump administration — unlike Obama's — is enforcing the law passed by Congress which makes it a crime to cross the border illegally.

http://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/ ... mmigration


For the logic impaired...now every adult is under prosecution - so every child is subject to possible separation.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 21 Jun 2018, 18:53

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
Snarfyguy wrote:The Obama administration separated immigrant children from accompanying adults in two types of cases: (1) if the child was in danger or (2) if the accompanying adult was being prosecuted.

The Trump administration did not alter these guidelines. What did change, however, is that the Trump administration — unlike Obama's — is enforcing the law passed by Congress which makes it a crime to cross the border illegally.

http://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/ ... mmigration


For the logic impaired...now every adult is under prosecution - so every child is subject to possible separation.


Not anymore, Einstein. Trump rescinded the separation rule.

Besides, the legal minutia are hard for me to fathom but what I do get is that the rules under Obama were only marginally more humane than Trump's. Trump is only adding on to what Obama and his predecessors wrought, like each new guy getting his licks in on the hazing, getting blooded. And remember, whoever was in power all this strictness was enacted as a deterrent to discourage these wretched and downtrodden families and, yes, gangsters, from coming to the US in the first place. There is video of Obama and candidate Clinton speaking of how these harsh rules should deter them from coming in the first place. Obama: Don't come or we will imprison your entire family. Trump: Don't come or we will imprison your family and remove your children. If either of those threats didn't deter them can you imagine how harsh life was in those countries? Both are a far cry from the welcoming words on the Statue of Liberty.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby toomanyhatz » 21 Jun 2018, 19:31

Jimbo wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
Snarfyguy wrote:The Obama administration separated immigrant children from accompanying adults in two types of cases: (1) if the child was in danger or (2) if the accompanying adult was being prosecuted.

The Trump administration did not alter these guidelines. What did change, however, is that the Trump administration — unlike Obama's — is enforcing the law passed by Congress which makes it a crime to cross the border illegally.

http://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/ ... mmigration


For the logic impaired...now every adult is under prosecution - so every child is subject to possible separation.


Not anymore, Einstein. Trump rescinded the separation rule...Trump is only adding on to what Obama and his predecessors wrought..


Not so fast, Socrates. He rescinded that one part of the order - after saying he couldn't - but did absolutely nothing for the children already separated, and still maintained that asylum seekers must still be considered criminals - he's just detaining families together. It's not some magnanimous gesture on his part. It basically improves the "optics" without making any meaningful change to the part of the policy that he (no, not Obama - not on any level) instituted. Here's a 'common sense' rundown from Rolling Stone (an opinion piece, yes, but a lot more backed up by facts than anything the administration has offered up):

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/n ... er-w521783
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 21 Jun 2018, 19:59

toomanyhatz wrote:
Jimbo wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
For the logic impaired...now every adult is under prosecution - so every child is subject to possible separation.


Not anymore, Einstein. Trump rescinded the separation rule...Trump is only adding on to what Obama and his predecessors wrought..


Not so fast, Socrates. He rescinded that one part of the order - after saying he couldn't - but did absolutely nothing for the children already separated, and still maintained that asylum seekers must still be considered criminals - he's just detaining families together. It's not some magnanimous gesture on his part. It basically improves the "optics" without making any meaningful change to the part of the policy that he (no, not Obama - not on any level) instituted. Here's a 'common sense' rundown from Rolling Stone (an opinion piece, yes, but a lot more backed up by facts than anything the administration has offered up):

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/n ... er-w521783


Thanks for that Hatz. Not only you but the RS article misses my point and does not mention how the Obama admin policy was nearly as heartless. The article does however give Trump an out with this sentence.
Trump and his administration have absolutely no idea what they’re doing.

Obama's did.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby ORORORO » 21 Jun 2018, 20:03

Ooooohh he's got you there!! :lol:
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Goat Boy » 21 Jun 2018, 20:04

Of course they know what they are doing. They are saying to people if you want to come to our country without documentation this is what we are going to do to your kids and your family.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby toomanyhatz » 21 Jun 2018, 20:23

Jimbo wrote:[ the Obama admin policy was nearly as heartless.


Not interested in arguing this point, as it's irrelevant to the point you keep missing - that the prosecution of asylum seekers is the new part - and completely the current administration's doing.

I think the "don't know what they're doing" part isn't referring to that - as GB says, they know exactly what they're doing. I think it's referring to the constant improvisation of how they manage to throw chum to their base while deflecting as much criticism as possible on to the democrats. The "it's important to me to keep families together" line is particularly high on the bullshit meter - and I suspect most people, even his supporters, can see through it.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 21 Jun 2018, 20:50

You know, to be honest, from where I sit and what I have experienced, no matter how the US government handles those people, in the end they'll be all right. Even with Trump in charge. They won't be killed like the Jews in Europe or like in any other infamous mass round up and killing. They will be treated roughly and they deserve to be treated much better but in the end they will survive, unlike how they may have fared in their home countries. The US immigration policy is a horror show but not a death squad.

That said, how about focusing on where US policy - Trumps and Obama's - are actually killing people, children, torturing them, droning them, driving them out of their homes, making them into refugees - - who then have to contend with our disgraceful ICE. I'm talking about Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan. I'd like to see Rachael shed some tears for what we have done to those people.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby sneelock » 21 Jun 2018, 20:54

I’d like to see Kanye play the bagpipes. Nothing he does is worth my regarding until he does.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Goat Boy » 21 Jun 2018, 20:58

Diamond Dog wrote:Everyone else hates us.

Fuck you all.

We won.


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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby sloopjohnc » 21 Jun 2018, 21:01



The level of visual tone deafness of these people is incredible. Nielsen going to a Mexican restaurant the day of all the news coverage on the kids and parents is a perfect example.

That should have been the night she said, "Let's do Italian."
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 21 Jun 2018, 21:06

sloopjohnc wrote: Nielsen going to a Mexican restaurant the day of all the news coverage on the kids and parents is a perfect example.

That should have been the night she said, "Let's do Italian."


Oh, I know who Nielsen is! She's the lady who got heckled by protesters in the Mexican restaurant.

So now that you know I know can I get some cred back?
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 21 Jun 2018, 21:28

Jimbo wrote:You know, to be honest, from where I sit and what I have experienced, no matter how the US government handles those people, in the end they'll be all right. Even with Trump in charge. They won't be killed like the Jews in Europe or like in any other infamous mass round up and killing. They will be treated roughly and they deserve to be treated much better but in the end they will survive, unlike how they may have fared in their home countries. The US immigration policy is a horror show but not a death squad.


Which brings us back to Baron’s astute assessment of you:

LeBaron wrote:1. This is all a big game to you
2. You don’t really give a shit about other humans
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby LeBaron » 21 Jun 2018, 21:58

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
Jimbo wrote:You know, to be honest, from where I sit and what I have experienced, no matter how the US government handles those people, in the end they'll be all right. Even with Trump in charge. They won't be killed like the Jews in Europe or like in any other infamous mass round up and killing. They will be treated roughly and they deserve to be treated much better but in the end they will survive, unlike how they may have fared in their home countries. The US immigration policy is a horror show but not a death squad.


Which brings us back to Baron’s astute assessment of you:

LeBaron wrote:1. This is all a big game to you
2. You don’t really give a shit about other humans


It’s also not at all clear that these people, particularly the children, will just “be alright.” That’s not a bet I would take.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby toomanyhatz » 21 Jun 2018, 22:27

Following the Jimbo argument:

1) Yes, this is a cruel policy. But these are illegals, after all.
2) Oh, some of them are asylum seekers? Well, Obama treated them the same way.
3) Oh, he didn't? Well, he was almost as bad.
4) Oh, Obama didn't charge asylum seekers with a crime? Well, it's not like he's shooting them on 5th Avenue. It's just an inconvenience they'll be able to tell their grandchildren about. They'll be OK.

Have you considered seeking employment in the Trump cabinet? You're definitely their kinda people.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 22 Jun 2018, 03:24

toomanyhatz wrote:
Have you considered seeking employment in the Trump cabinet? You're definitely their kinda people.


I said early on that I don't hate Trump. I shake my head and mutter "Holy shit," when I see him bumbling on the news at international conferences - he so not "presidential" - but that is not enough for me to hate him. Plus he's American and deserves the right to be President just like any American. It's an "Only in America!" wonderment that a pussy grabbing schmuck like him won and now I'm dealing sanely with it, i.e., with a sense of humor. Since the campaign I was chastised here (esp. by DD) for not hating him but Trump did say he'd build new airports and as a traveler that sounded good. I also liked how he said he was moved after talking with black leaders like maybe he'd do something good for African Americans. So far he hasn't done anything revolutionary. It is possible his draconian immigration crack down move is for them for it is the poor who are losing job opportunities to illegal immigrants. That he caved and rejiggered the law to allow kids to stay with families is a sign of goodness, i.e., he's not Dr. Evil. (Actually he's Biff from Back To The Future.) How he's actually managed the government is a something to consider but I went to the embassy the other day for a passport and lo and behold, the embassy was still there and I got my passport. Not to mention that my social security check comes every month. And his foreign policy policy is pro-Israel so I can't hate him for that plus he's carrying on the senseless 9/11 false flag middle east wars just like Bush and Obama had, as if Hillary had said congratulations after the loss and slipped him the deep state playbook - wink! And I loved how he said he'd talk with Putin. Collaborating with Putin my eye. The Russiagate charges are bullshit and serve only to remind voters that Hillary is a sore loser, not to mention a hypocrite for selling Russia US uranium and Bill taking big money for speeches. Oh, and for cheating Sanders. At least Trump won fair and square. The good news is - if he doesn't pull a Hitler - he needs to run again in 2020. The bad news is it's against the Democrats.

PS The guy is an amateur but if you notice he is getting better at the job. Maybe once he's found a firmer footing and gained more confidence and knows more of the ins and outs he will make good some of his promised moves like improving the health care and draining the swamp. Maybe.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Snarfyguy » 22 Jun 2018, 06:02

Jimbo wrote:Oh, I know who Nielsen is! She's the lady who got heckled by protesters in the Mexican restaurant.

If that's how you know who she is then I suspect you haven't been paying attention to some of the very issues you allude to, but comically misapprehend.

Does anyone think this place could sustain a discussion about politics that didn't have this "everybody vs. Jimbo" fulcrum that this one seems to rest on? Not because I want to give him a break, but I I feel like this scattered logic that's always getting taken to task is kind of a distraction.

I don't want to think about having to "prove" to Jimbo that he (that you, Jimbo :) ) took a contradictory stance on something 12 pages ago. It's wearing me out.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 22 Jun 2018, 06:10

Jimbo wrote:
toomanyhatz wrote:
Have you considered seeking employment in the Trump cabinet? You're definitely their kinda people.


I said early on that I don't hate Trump. I shake my head and mutter "Holy shit," when I see him bumbling on the news at international conferences - he so not "presidential" - but that is not enough for me to hate him. Plus he's American and deserves the right to be President just like any American. It's an "Only in America!" wonderment that a pussy grabbing schmuck like him won and now I'm dealing sanely with it, i.e., with a sense of humor. Since the campaign I was chastised here (esp. by DD) for not hating him but Trump did say he'd build new airports and as a traveler that sounded good. I also liked how he said he was moved after talking with black leaders like maybe he'd do something good for African Americans. So far he hasn't done anything revolutionary. It is possible his draconian immigration crack down move is for them for it is the poor who are losing job opportunities to illegal immigrants. That he caved and rejiggered the law to allow kids to stay with families is a sign of goodness, i.e., he's not Dr. Evil. (Actually he's Biff from Back To The Future.) How he's actually managed the government is a something to consider but I went to the embassy the other day for a passport and lo and behold, the embassy was still there and I got my passport. Not to mention that my social security check comes every month. And his foreign policy policy is pro-Israel so I can't hate him for that plus he's carrying on the senseless 9/11 false flag middle east wars just like Bush and Obama had, as if Hillary had said congratulations after the loss and slipped him the deep state playbook - wink! And I loved how he said he'd talk with Putin. Collaborating with Putin my eye. The Russiagate charges are bullshit and serve only to remind voters that Hillary is a sore loser, not to mention a hypocrite for selling Russia US uranium and Bill taking big money for speeches. Oh, and for cheating Sanders. At least Trump won fair and square. The good news is - if he doesn't pull a Hitler - he needs to run again in 2020. The bad news is it's against the Democrats.

PS The guy is an amateur but if you notice he is getting better at the job. Maybe once he's found a firmer footing and gained more confidence and knows more of the ins and outs he will make good some of his promised moves like improving the health care and draining the swamp. Maybe.


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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Jimbo » 22 Jun 2018, 07:03

Snarfyguy wrote:
I don't want to think about having to "prove" to Jimbo that he (that you, Jimbo :) ) took a contradictory stance on something 12 pages ago. It's wearing me out.


I'd rather be movable in my opinions than dogmatic. I'm no expert, to say the very least, but I do know politics and governing are complicated. There are many intelligent and engaging speakers and writers to whom I pay attention, many with opposing views and if it's a sensible argument I pay heed and maybe add it to my measly and jumbled arsenal of ideas. I didn't know the names of the architects of Trump's immigration plan. Sue me. I do know, however, thanks to a Lee Camp video that trillions are missing from our coffers. Which do you think is more important to know, the names of a couple of Republican patsies set up to take the flak for a shitty Republican policy or that the hugest heist in the history of the world is going on with our taxes?

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