"Fake News"

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks

Ban "fake news" sites?

Yes
1
14%
No
6
86%
 
Total votes: 7

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Davey the Fat Boy
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 13 Mar 2017, 00:58

PresMuffley wrote:
Do you consider the Daily Beast a paragon of journalistic integrity?


Are we really now at the point in which one must consider a need platform a "paragon of journalistic integrity" to post a link?

C'mon man. Just look at what's written and react according to its content.
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PresMuffley
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby PresMuffley » 13 Mar 2017, 01:25

Hey, I'm a curious monkey. I was just wanting your opinion. I never look at the site. Nor do I partake in FB or Twitter, which a lot of this article refers to.

I just re-read it and perhaps I was a bit too negative in my initial reaction. It's an interesting piece, for sure, but I'm completely out of the loop when it comes to the social media stuff it refers to. I hate FB & Twitter with a passion. I also never read The Nation. I voted for Bernie in the primary but certainly would never consider myself a Bernie Bro (ick!).

Stein was / is a goof. It's not as if I ever actually had faith in her words. For six months last year I was living alone (with my dog) in a cabin without electricity or running water. I only had my mobile data (which ran out very quickly) and a radio. It's impossible to keep up with everything regardless.

All I can really say is that I don't personally know anyone who voted Bernie, then went for Trump, though I have read a number of comments on various sites from people espousing such a stance. It's impossible for me to say if those views were organic or manufactured.
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Jimbo
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby Jimbo » 13 Mar 2017, 01:35

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Parry freaked out Harvard's Nieman Foundation board to the extent that they just threw the medal and ribbon around his neck like a ring toss. They then told one of America's most respected journalists, "Take it. Take it. But please …. No more bad news!"

http://nieman.harvard.edu/events/robert ... pendence//
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Jimbo
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby Jimbo » 13 Mar 2017, 02:32

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/01/the-doomsday-clocks-new-and-dire-warning/514544/

The doomsday clock accounts for all sorts of factors - climate change being the biggest cause of our current heightened danger.


Breaking news: The sea water has crept up Collins Avenue and may reach Second Avenue by January. The mansion owners around Alton Avenue can rest easily for now but come 2030 they'd better get ready to begin to start thinking about making plans to skedaddle.
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PresMuffley
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby PresMuffley » 13 Mar 2017, 10:06

Getting back to this:

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Maybe Scheer backs of a litttle more in the part I haven't heard. He's overbearing at the top of the interview.

That's Scheer being Scheer. He always has a lot to say. Hell, it's his show, but I didn't get the feeling he was being overbearing. He's a veteran in the game, and I enjoy his insights.

As for Wallace - reading the original post that got him fired, I was struck by the way he conflated the concept of objectivity with a false centrism. I agree with him that centrism is an inherently false concept. I'm not as convinced that objectivity is.


Do you find it worrisome that a journalist can be fired from the so-called liberal media format of public radio for simply expressing himself in what I felt was a rather innocuous personal blog post? I do.

I don't think objectivity forces someone like Wallace to do so, as he can still remain objective from his perspective of the truth. That would mean telling the truth as he sees it...even the inconvenient parts. As such...subjectivity and objectivity co-exist.


Apparently it cannot. Hence being axed.

This is different than what Greenwald and Parry are doing. They are operating as out and out advocates for a specific viewpoint- and neither seems to be above manipulating the facts to sell their world view. As such - I find them both useless.


I'm still not sold on Parry either way. From the little of his work I've seen I'm not impressed, but he apparently has some cache in the world of investigative journalists due to his past investigations. I haven't looked into any of that as of now.

Expressing one's opinion & manipulating the facts are very different. I don't really know how familiar you are with Greenwald, but I would never accuse him of the latter. In every debate and interview I've seen him in he comes across as an extremely honest guy who is unwilling to relent in his pursuit of the truth. It almost seems as if you have some personal vendetta against him.
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Samoan
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby Samoan » 13 Mar 2017, 11:00

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Last edited by Samoan on 13 Mar 2017, 11:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby Samoan » 13 Mar 2017, 11:05

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Davey the Fat Boy
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 13 Mar 2017, 12:06

PresMuffley wrote:Do you find it worrisome that a journalist can be fired from the so-called liberal media format of public radio for simply expressing himself in what I felt was a rather innocuous personal blog post? I do.


My understanding was that he was that his post was in violation of company guidelines calling for staffers to keep their political views private and be neutral. We can debate whether that's a good policy, but it appears that he agreed to it as a condition of employment.

Apparently he was asked to take the post down, and was fired upon his decision to repost it. While I personally think the decision was unwise, I don't see it as worrisome. An NPR show about financial news clearly was no longer the right venue for the kind of journalism Wallace was evolving towards.



I don't think objectivity forces someone like Wallace to do so, as he can still remain objective from his perspective of the truth. That would mean telling the truth as he sees it...even the inconvenient parts. As such...subjectivity and objectivity co-exist.


Apparently it cannot. Hence being axed.


Of course it can. Marketplace didn't fire Wallace for his work. It fired him for republishing a blog post that called his objectivity into question.

Expressing one's opinion & manipulating the facts are very different. I don't really know how familiar you are with Greenwald, but I would never accuse him of the latter. In every debate and interview I've seen him in he comes across as an extremely honest guy who is unwilling to relent in his pursuit of the truth. It almost seems as if you have some personal vendetta against him.


No personal vendetta. I just keep noting his byline attached to stories that strike me as manipulative. The Ellison one we discussed at length being a case in point, but far from the only one.
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PresMuffley
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby PresMuffley » 13 Mar 2017, 13:27

Davey the Fat Boy wrote: An NPR show about financial news clearly was no longer the right venue for the kind of journalism Wallace was evolving towards.


I agree with that.

Marketplace didn't fire Wallace for his work.


I find it more troublesome that he wasn't fired for his work.

It fired him for republishing a blog post that called his objectivity into question.


I think he was fired because he was refused to remain silent. It's all in how you choose to frame it.

No personal vendetta. I just keep noting his byline attached to stories that strike me as manipulative. The Ellison one we discussed at length being a case in point, but far from the only one.


From what I've been able to glean in the discussions we've had, you're much more of a centrist than I am, so I imagine that has a lot to do with our differing opinions on his reporting.

Regarding NPR, I found this pretty enlightening on how they go about things:

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Davey the Fat Boy
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 13 Mar 2017, 16:09

PresMuffley wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:It fired him for republishing a blog post that called his objectivity into question.


I think he was fired because he was refused to remain silent. It's all in how you choose to frame it.


That's the problem right there.

The facts as I understand them are that they fired him for reposting the piece after being reminded of a company policy he'd seemingly agreed to at hire. The underlying truth may or may not be that they wanted him to remain silent - but what basis do you have to come to that conclusion? Your spidey sense? Your distrust of NPR? Something else you haven't shared?

I don't know how you arrive at that - and since you aren't a reporter...that's your luxury. But the kind of journalism that starts from an assumption like that and then works to build outrage around it is exactly what we are discussing.


PresMuffley wrote:From what I've been able to glean in the discussions we've had, you're much more of a centrist than I am, so I imagine that has a lot to do with our differing opinions on his reporting.


It could also be argued that I'm more of a centrist than you because I find much of the reporting from the progressive wing of the party unconvincing.

Trust me...I've been to the left of you. I spent a long time there. I'm still hardly a centrist - I just think that the "progressive" end of the party has moved so far left that it's almost on the right right now. Look at Jimbo.
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PresMuffley
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby PresMuffley » 13 Mar 2017, 16:47

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:what basis do you have to come to that conclusion? Your spidey sense? Your distrust of NPR? Something else you haven't shared?


The situation speaks for itself in my eyes. And as Wallace points out in the latter half of the interview, the people at the top of the NPR ladder aren't dumb. They couldn't have possibly misunderstood the blog post. There appears to be a fear of rocking the boat. Especially with Trump's demonization of the media. Wallace doesn't seem bitter, though. And I think what happened is probably to his benefit in the end. There are levels of mistrust that I have towards any outlet. I listen to NPR everyday and trust them much more than any rightwing organization. But I acknowledge they are far from perfect.

It could also be argued that I'm more of a centrist than you because I find much of the reporting from the progressive wing of the party unconvincing.


I'm not a leftist because of journalists. I'm a leftist because I've studied history and because of life experience. So your comment doesn't make much sense to me.
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Davey the Fat Boy
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 14 Mar 2017, 02:11

PresMuffley wrote:
The situation speaks for itself in my eyes. And as Wallace points out in the latter half of the interview, the people at the top of the NPR ladder aren't dumb. They couldn't have possibly misunderstood the blog post. There appears to be a fear of rocking the boat. Especially with Trump's demonization of the media.


The point still remains. He wasn't fired for posting it. He was fired reposting it after they reminded him of the policy. In other words, they were apparently prepared to keep him on fully understanding where he stood.

I'm sure they are a bit spooked by the political landscape. But they have every right to protect their brand - and they believe that their brand requires a perception of political neutrality. Given this, they probably don't want to allow their employees to publicly call that neutrality into question.

I don't think you actually have reason to attribute bad motivations to them, beyond the fact that you want to.



It could also be argued that I'm more of a centrist than you because I find much of the reporting from the progressive wing of the party unconvincing.


I'm not a leftist because of journalists. I'm a leftist because I've studied history and because of life experience. So your comment doesn't make much sense to me.


You may indeed be a leftist for the reasons you say, but the way your ideological leanings express themselves has everything to do with the quality of the journalism you consume.
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PresMuffley
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby PresMuffley » 14 Mar 2017, 02:20

You mean quality journalism such as this:

https://theintercept.com/2017/03/13/rand-paul-is-right-nsa-routinely-monitors-americans-communications-without-warrants/

Enjoy. I look forward to your attempt to dismantle.
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Davey the Fat Boy
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 14 Mar 2017, 02:34

Is there a reason I should dismantle it?
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Jimbo
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby Jimbo » 14 Mar 2017, 03:04

Something About This Russia Story Stinks
Nearly a decade and a half after the Iraq-WMD faceplant, the American press is again asked to co-sign a dubious intelligence assessment
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/fe ... ks-w458439

(Yeah, I know. Matt Taibbi, another winner, eh Davey?)
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 14 Mar 2017, 04:19

I don't have any big issue with Taibbi. He's a better writer than Greenwald, so the hyperbole is usually less. But no - I don't usually agree with him.

Here he starts of with a somewhat dishonest conceit. The intelligence community did not have nearly the consensus about the WMD charge as they do Russian interference in our election. There were also reforms put in place in the years since Iraq to make an intelligence failure like that less likely.

Ultimately - we have to ask ourselves if the WMD failure allows us the right to cherrypick the intelligence we want to believe from now on. In the time since this article was published multiple Trump administration figures have been caught in the lie of having met or spoke with with Russian envoys. Now THAT smells fishy to me.
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Jimbo
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby Jimbo » 14 Mar 2017, 05:11

Frankly shit is so confusing I don't worry about the details anymore, even if there is a Russia-Trump connection, which common sense not hacking tells me there probably is. He appointed the head of Exxon to be SoS when there is a boycott to be ended and deals to be made and Trump should be investigated under the emoluments clause. My posting the link is to pat myself on the back for finding a rarity in the media. Someone else who sees the media mania I have been going on about and getting chided.

If you, Davey, are wary of a bias in the words of Greenwald and Parry, at least their bias is to expose corruption. The rest of the media are horrid in the way they have been playing the Russia mania. It's classic yellow journalism---fake news! Do you think the WMD/aluminum tubes story is old news and should be forgotten because they've now learned and are better? Get the fuck outta here! There have been countless more incidents of mainstream media lies and sucking up to the official and corporate narratives. The embedding of reporters in the Iraq war was a propaganda ploy, to make an illegal war legit. And the stories they don't tell. Robert Parry should have his own MSNBC show.
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby toomanyhatz » 14 Mar 2017, 05:53

Jimbo wrote:Frankly shit is so confusing I don't worry about the details anymore, even if there is a Russia-Trump connection, which common sense not hacking tells me there probably is. He appointed the head of Exxon to be SoS when there is a boycott to be ended and deals to be made and Trump should be investigated under the emoluments clause. My posting the link is to pat myself on the back for finding a rarity in the media. Someone else who sees the media mania I have been going on about and getting chided.


Nobody's chiding you for going on about the media mania. They're chiding you for not applying the same suspicion to stories that confirm your bias that you do to stories that don't. Doubt everything that doesn't meet the burden of proof, not just the stuff you care to disbelieve.

I was actually thinking that the TIllerson story would be right up your alley and have wondered why you hadn't spoken of it until now, though maybe you did and I missed it. Or maybe it's because the "mainstream" press has covered it too. For example: does this look like sucking up to corporate narratives to you? It's from the old Hillary-lovin' New York Times.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/12/worl ... .html?_r=0

The rest of the media are horrid in the way they have been playing the Russia mania. It's classic yellow journalism---fake news! Do you think the WMD/aluminum tubes story is old news and should be forgotten because they've now learned and are better? Get the fuck outta here! There have been countless more incidents of mainstream media lies and sucking up to the official and corporate narratives. The embedding of reporters in the Iraq war was a propaganda ploy, to make an illegal war legit. And the stories they don't tell. Robert Parry should have his own MSNBC show.


Oh well. You sounded almost reasonable in the first paragraph. Then the usual hysteria. Here's the thing: regardless of the source, you need to take each individual story at face value. Your man Parry has already been part of mainstream journalism - you may or may not know this, but he started his career writing about Iran/Contra for the AP and Newsweek. If anything he was a better writer then, 'cause he had editors imposing rules on how much and what kind of evidence was necessary. He still managed to be a maverick. If you were to say it's harder to do so now, I'd probably agree with you. But instead your only rule seems to be if they're a crank on the internet, they're probably telling the truth. In light of this, your want for Parry to have an MSNBC show is rather ironic. You'd be calling him a corporate sellout within the first month. Check your biases. Check your sources. If you really want to get to the truth, apply the same standard of proof to everyone.
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PresMuffley
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby PresMuffley » 14 Mar 2017, 06:22

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Is there a reason I should dismantle it?


Your warning?

Davey the Fat Boy wrote: you'll open yourself to spending hours untangling the opinions from the facts.


You mean we don't have to debate for several pages on his choice of adjectives?

Progress. Dare I say, progressive.
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Jimbo
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby Jimbo » 14 Mar 2017, 13:11

https://consortiumnews.com/2017/03/13/w ... -is-truth/

When ‘Disinformation’ Is Truth
March 13, 2017

Exclusive: Democrats and liberals have climbed into bed with the neocons to push the “Russia-did-it” conspiracy theory as a way to “get Trump,” but this New McCarthyism has grave dangers, writes Robert Parry
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