"Fake News"

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks

Ban "fake news" sites?

Yes
1
14%
No
6
86%
 
Total votes: 7

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PresMuffley
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby PresMuffley » 12 Mar 2017, 15:55

I thought he gave Wallace ample airtime.
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Davey the Fat Boy
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 12 Mar 2017, 16:09

Maybe Scheer backs of a litttle more in the part I haven't heard. He's overbearing at the top of the interview.


As for Wallace - reading the original post that got him fired, I was struck by the way he conflated the concept of objectivity with a false centrism. I agree with him that centrism is an inherently false concept. I'm not as convinced that objectivity is.

As I said earlier, I see objectivity as an unreachable goal...but an important goal. The issue isn't whether journalists are going to be stuck in a personal matrix of subjectivity. Of course they will! How could things be otherwise? But what we're seeing on this thread is the difference between going into a story with the intention of following the story wherever it goes, and the use of a story to further a pre-existing set of goals and world views.

I get being unwilling to participate in a debate in which the perceived midpoint is clearly wrongheaded. I don't think objectivity forces someone like Wallace to do so, as he can still remain objective from his perspective of the truth. That would mean telling the truth as he sees it...even the inconvenient parts. As such...subjectivity and objectivity co-exist.

This is different than what Greenwald and Parry are doing. They are operating as out and out advocates for a specific viewpoint- and neither seems to be above manipulating the facts to sell their world view. As such - I find them both useless.
Last edited by Davey the Fat Boy on 12 Mar 2017, 16:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby PresMuffley » 12 Mar 2017, 16:22

You sure talk a good game on this thread, yet you also posted a Daily Beast article with no redeeming value whatsoever - unless you just happen to get a boner at the thought of the treacherous far left being decieved.
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 12 Mar 2017, 16:41

PresMuffley wrote:You sure talk a good game on this thread, yet you also posted a Daily Beast article with no redeeming value whatsoever - unless you just happen to get a boner at the thought of the treacherous far left being decieved.


As I said...I hadn't even done more than skim the article. I openly admitted to only posting it because I liked the headline.

So yeah...gave me a boner. Don't I deserve one?
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 12 Mar 2017, 16:51

The above said...I'd love to see your rebuttal to that Daily Beast article. Having now read it, I'm less than enthusiastic about defending it - mostly because I suspect anyone of wading into the Russia fray of being full of shit. But at the very least I think the article has some value as a counter-theory to the one being peddled by the Greenwald/Parry/Jimbo axis.
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby Jimbo » 12 Mar 2017, 16:55

Was her grandfather a nazi? Yes. How I know this? I read it in CN, which I believe broke the story. Did Russia spread this information? According to many publications, yes, but not according to CN and that Ottawa paper. According to CN when confronted with the question of her grandfather's past she deflected and blamed the Russian's for spreading disinformation. According to those other publications it seems they took Freeland's word for it that it was Russia. But how could it have been Russia if it was CN which broke the story? Find if you can the source which confirms it was Russia. i looked and can't find it. Google "Chrystia Freeland Nazi" and see how CN, the Ottawa paper and most of the rest differ.
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 12 Mar 2017, 16:58

Another interesting facet of this discussion. Who was flooding our social media outlets with disinformation? Was it the Russians or a false flag operation of some kind?

This article (no...I don't generally endorse Huffpo) is interesting because it interviews folks from the Bernie Sanders campaign about their perspectives on what happened. As such...I think it's worth a read.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ber ... 71826cdb36
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 12 Mar 2017, 17:08

Jimbo wrote:Was her grandfather a nazi? Yes. How I know this? I read it in CN, which I believe broke the story. Did Russia spread this information? According to many publications, yes, but not according to CN and that Ottawa paper. According to CN when confronted with the question of her grandfather's past she deflected and blamed the Russian's for spreading disinformation. According to those other publications it seems they took Freeland's word for it that it was Russia. But how could it have been Russia if it was CN which broke the story? Find if you can the source which confirms it was Russia. i looked and can't find it. Google "Chrystia Freeland Nazi" and see how CN, the Ottawa paper and most of the rest differ.


Do us all a favor. Open up the original CN story. Do a word search on the letters "Russ." Count how many times Russia is mentioned in a story about a Canadian woman's Ukrainian grandfather's career at a Polish newspaper during Nazi occupation.

Then ponder for 30 seconds where she might have gotten the idea that the attack on her just might have come from Russia. :roll:
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby Jimbo » 12 Mar 2017, 17:26

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
Jimbo wrote:Was her grandfather a nazi? Yes. How I know this? I read it in CN, which I believe broke the story. Did Russia spread this information? According to many publications, yes, but not according to CN and that Ottawa paper. According to CN when confronted with the question of her grandfather's past she deflected and blamed the Russian's for spreading disinformation. According to those other publications it seems they took Freeland's word for it that it was Russia. But how could it have been Russia if it was CN which broke the story? Find if you can the source which confirms it was Russia. i looked and can't find it. Google "Chrystia Freeland Nazi" and see how CN, the Ottawa paper and most of the rest differ.


Do us all a favor. Open up the original CN story. Do a word search on the letters "Russ." Count how many times Russia is mentioned in a story about a Canadian woman's Ukrainian grandfather's career at a Polish newspaper during Nazi occupation.

Then ponder for 30 seconds where she might have gotten the idea that the attack on her just might have come from Russia. :roll:


What exactly do you disbelieve? Do you disbelieve he was a nazi? What I will concede is that ALL the other papers agree he was a nazi; it's just who spread this information is what I and CN question. Your suggestion is idiotic.

Ponder for a moment what you are resisting here. We are on a very thin edge here and the US and Canada are ready to go to war with Russia, very likely a nuclear war that Trump's generals think they can win. This kind of over the top propaganda, this imprecise blaming without real proof yet is like how the nazis smeared the Jews. This is how McCarthyism took hold in the 50s with commies under your bed kind of thinking. Then do MY google search and read how this news about Russian supposed spreading of fake news is handled? It's nuts! Thank god there is a Consortium News and a Robert Parry to talk us down from this bad trip.
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby PresMuffley » 12 Mar 2017, 17:27

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:The above said...I'd love to see your rebuttal to that Daily Beast article. Having now read it, I'm less than enthusiastic about defending it - mostly because I suspect anyone of wading into the Russia fray of being full of shit. But at the very least I think the article has some value as a counter-theory to the one being peddled by the Greenwald/Parry/Jimbo axis.


I might delve into it in more detail later. I'm feeling a bit mentally fatigued at the moment. I've been spending too much time online lately and not sleeping nearly enough. Basically what I got out of it was a snide, sneering tone attempting to stereotype all leftists as dupes. The Stein / Russia stuff didn't interest me at all, as I only voted for her out of a lack of a better option and because a vote for Hillary in my supremely red state wouldn't have helped anything.
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby Jimbo » 12 Mar 2017, 17:58

I recall in the 70s how all the hip music mags like RS were cool about pot, and cocaine as well, saying neither were addictive.
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 12 Mar 2017, 18:24

Jimbo wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
Jimbo wrote:Was her grandfather a nazi? Yes. How I know this? I read it in CN, which I believe broke the story. Did Russia spread this information? According to many publications, yes, but not according to CN and that Ottawa paper. According to CN when confronted with the question of her grandfather's past she deflected and blamed the Russian's for spreading disinformation. According to those other publications it seems they took Freeland's word for it that it was Russia. But how could it have been Russia if it was CN which broke the story? Find if you can the source which confirms it was Russia. i looked and can't find it. Google "Chrystia Freeland Nazi" and see how CN, the Ottawa paper and most of the rest differ.


Do us all a favor. Open up the original CN story. Do a word search on the letters "Russ." Count how many times Russia is mentioned in a story about a Canadian woman's Ukrainian grandfather's career at a Polish newspaper during Nazi occupation.

Then ponder for 30 seconds where she might have gotten the idea that the attack on her just might have come from Russia. :roll:


What exactly do you disbelieve? Do you disbelieve he was a nazi? What I will concede is that ALL the other papers agree he was a nazi; it's just who spread this information is what I and CN question. Your suggestion is idiotic.

Ponder for a moment what you are resisting here. We are on a very thin edge here and the US and Canada are ready to go to war with Russia, very likely a nuclear war that Trump's generals think they can win. This kind of over the top propaganda, this imprecise blaming without real proof yet is like how the nazis smeared the Jews. This is how McCarthyism took hold in the 50s with commies under your bed kind of thinking. Then do MY google search and read how this news about Russian supposed spreading of fake news is handled? It's nuts! Thank god there is a Consortium News and a Robert Parry to talk us down from this bad trip.


Seriously man...you must have some serious reading comprehension issues.

Where do I so much as question the substance of the story about her grandfather? How can I make this more plain: THE ISSUE IS THAT THEY WROTE AN ARTICLE ABOUT RUSSIA - THEN BLAMED HER FOR SAYING THAT IT WAS ABOUT RUSSIA.
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 12 Mar 2017, 18:26

PresMuffley wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:The above said...I'd love to see your rebuttal to that Daily Beast article. Having now read it, I'm less than enthusiastic about defending it - mostly because I suspect anyone of wading into the Russia fray of being full of shit. But at the very least I think the article has some value as a counter-theory to the one being peddled by the Greenwald/Parry/Jimbo axis.


I might delve into it in more detail later. I'm feeling a bit mentally fatigued at the moment. I've been spending too much time online lately and not sleeping nearly enough. Basically what I got out of it was a snide, sneering tone attempting to stereotype all leftists as dupes. The Stein / Russia stuff didn't interest me at all, as I only voted for her out of a lack of a better option and because a vote for Hillary in my supremely red state wouldn't have helped anything.


None of which speaks to the article's validity (or lack thereof). But perhaps later.
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby toomanyhatz » 12 Mar 2017, 20:24

Jimbo wrote:Ponder for a moment what you are resisting here. We are on a very thin edge here and the US and Canada are ready to go to war with Russia, very likely a nuclear war that Trump's generals think they can win. This kind of over the top propaganda, this imprecise blaming without real proof yet is like how the nazis smeared the Jews. This is how McCarthyism took hold in the 50s with commies under your bed kind of thinking. Then do MY google search and read how this news about Russian supposed spreading of fake news is handled? It's nuts! Thank god there is a Consortium News and a Robert Parry to talk us down from this bad trip.


Wow, you're really all over the fucking map here. No, the US and Canada are not ready to go to war with Russia. "Trump's Generals," at least so far, appear to be quite aware that their commander-in-chief is a jackass who doesn't know the first thing about diplomacy or intelligence. And what would this "kind of over the top propaganda" look like? Maybe somebody making Nazi and McCarthy parallels based on "imprecise blaming without real proof," which is a very good description of what Parry's doing? Nobody's resisting anything other than the temptation to accept something just 'cause it confirms what they've already decided must be true.

Yes, thank god for CN! They've convinced Jimbo that World War Three is about to start! Yeah, that's talking you down from this bad trip. Right.

Everyone else on this thread has poked holes numerous times in what you keep telling us we shouldn't be resisting. At some point, you might realize that your readiness to accept what you want to hear regardless of the evidence or lack thereof is what's really at play here. But I doubt it.
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby Samoan » 12 Mar 2017, 21:18

Just Ignore Him
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 12 Mar 2017, 21:28

I've ignored him for years. It's only made him more insane.

As for WWIII..that's the larger bit of insanity here, isn't it? This idea that we need to walk on eggshells around Putin or it's World War Three.

It's really just such a stupid bit of emotional blackmail that it isn't worth commenting on. But I guess it needs to be commented on or Jimbo will believe it's a meaningful thing to say.

Meanwhile we are nowhere within miles of dropping a nuke on Russia, and Jimbo's got his great champion in the White House to see that we don't.
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby kath » 12 Mar 2017, 21:43

i don't always ignore jimbo. but when it comes to anything resembling a logical argument, from him or from his sources, i phase it out entirely. mwhaha. even i don't have the patience to play that much spot-the-fallacy.

however, i am more open about the sons of champlin.

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Re: "Fake News"

Postby PresMuffley » 12 Mar 2017, 21:55

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:None of which speaks to the article's validity (or lack thereof). But perhaps later.


Do you consider the Daily Beast a paragon of journalistic integrity?

Simple going by my initial impression from yesterday I would say that any time anyone attempts to paint a picture of an entire segment of the population with such broad strokes whatever point they're trying to make is instantly negated.

Anyway, I have had a much needed power nap. I will check the article again at some point this evening.
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby Jimbo » 12 Mar 2017, 23:49

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So long. It's been good to know you.

2017: For the last two years, the minute hand of the Doomsday Clock stayed set at three minutes before the hour, the closest it had been to midnight since the early 1980s. In its two most recent annual announcements on the Clock, the Science and Security Board warned: “The probability of global catastrophe is very high, and the actions needed to reduce the risks of disaster must be taken very soon.” In 2017, we find the danger to be even greater, the need for action more urgent. It is two and a half minutes to midnight, the Clock is ticking, global danger looms. Wise public officials should act immediately, guiding humanity away from the brink. If they do not, wise citizens must step forward and lead the way. See the full statement from the Science and Security Board on the 2017 time of the Doomsday Clock.

President Obama has authorized a nuclear modernization program that would cost $1 trillion, that’s a “T,” over the next 30 years.


We have been gifted with the capacity to see. Instead, we are very close to doing ourselves in. We ignore the life-affirming realism of Jesus, Gandhi, the Dalai Lama and Martin Luther King in favor of the illusory “realism” of Kissinger, Cheney, Trump and Cruz.
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Re: "Fake News"

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 13 Mar 2017, 00:54

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/arc ... ng/514544/

The doomsday clock accounts for all sorts of factors - climate change being the biggest cause of our current heightened danger. The "Russian cyber-attack on the U.S. political system" is also factored...so if you don't believe that's real - you might also doubt their projection.

Regardless - the danger involving Trump and Putin isn't so much that the U.S. And Russia will lob bombs at each other. It's that both countries will escalate the nuclear race in reactions to nuclear gains made by Iran, China, Pakistan, India, and North Korea.

We are in far more danger of nuclear war with Iran than Russia. Remember Trump putting them "on notice"?

Meanwhile putting our heads in the sand and pretending that we weren't victims of foreign interference in our last election will not make the world safer. Nor will your insane projection made about the deep state. What we need now is sober reactions to the aggressions that actually happen. Taking foreign interference seriously won't cause nuclear war - but it might ultimately stave it off.
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