The future of the Labour Party

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Goat Boy
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Goat Boy » 08 Mar 2019, 13:51

Belle Lettre wrote:The regular early morning yell of horror was the sound of Arthur Dent waking up and suddenly remembering where he was.


Preludin is where it’s at these days
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


Copehead wrote:a right wing cretin like Berger....bleating about racism

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby The Modernist » 08 Mar 2019, 14:15

Goat Boy wrote:
The Modernist wrote:
Goat Boy wrote:
South Africa is not analogous. You are ignoring and conveniently overlooking the very obvious desire to destroy Israel that exists in that community and the region and the Islamist mindset that infects it too. To think that they could just shake hands and live together and maybe sing on a hill like some fucking coke advert is absurd. Abbas recognises this. The right to return is actually a barrier to a solution, not part of one.


I think the position of Palestinians is very much analogous to that of blacks under apartheid. You have become so obsessed with winning the argument on this that you have gone into denial on many aspects of modern Israel.


Read what I said again and understand why using South Africa as an example of how two groups of people can come together is not applicable in the case of Israel and Palestine after right to return. There are similarities but there are crucial, critical differences that are so huge that I don't consider the Israel/South Africa analogy particularly appropriate. At least in South Africa there was an overwhelming desire to come together and co-exist. That doesn't exist in this scenario.


There wasn't "an overwhelming desire" to come together at all, many whites were actively resistant to it. It happened because the ANC fought for it over many decades, and, crucially, were backed by international action. The South African regime knew they had to change because they were becoming economically and culturally isolated from the rest of the world.
I think there are many Palestinians and Israelis who can, and do, live happily together. I don't see that as irreconcilable at all. The difference is neither have the political representation to create the compromises and conditions to bring about meaningful change at the moment, and the international community does not have a commitment to bring about the kind of pressure which would force them to do so.

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby The Modernist » 08 Mar 2019, 14:18

Samoan wrote:
Author : Tom Bower 10 Feb 2019

[i]Corbyn’s A-levels were dismal – he scraped two with the bottom grade E and totally failed one. With no chance of following his three brothers to university, on his last day headmaster John Roberts predicted: ‘You’ll never make anything of your life.’


This makes me very angry for a number of reasons (none of which have anything to do with Jeremy Corbyn) and I wish you'd stop posting it.

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby The Prof » 08 Mar 2019, 14:22

The Modernist wrote:
Samoan wrote:
Author : Tom Bower 10 Feb 2019

[i]Corbyn’s A-levels were dismal – he scraped two with the bottom grade E and totally failed one. With no chance of following his three brothers to university, on his last day headmaster John Roberts predicted: ‘You’ll never make anything of your life.’


This makes me very angry for a number of reasons (none of which have anything to do with Jeremy Corbyn) and I wish you'd stop posting it.


I read the whole thing and thought, 'so what?'.
Are we supposed to think less of Corbyn for reading it?

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby clive gash » 08 Mar 2019, 14:41

Belle Lettre wrote:The regular early morning * yell of horror was the sound of Arthur Dent waking up and suddenly remembering where he was.


*4:35 to be precise
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Goat Boy » 08 Mar 2019, 15:30

The Modernist wrote:
Goat Boy wrote:
The Modernist wrote:
I think the position of Palestinians is very much analogous to that of blacks under apartheid. You have become so obsessed with winning the argument on this that you have gone into denial on many aspects of modern Israel.


Read what I said again and understand why using South Africa as an example of how two groups of people can come together is not applicable in the case of Israel and Palestine after right to return. There are similarities but there are crucial, critical differences that are so huge that I don't consider the Israel/South Africa analogy particularly appropriate. At least in South Africa there was an overwhelming desire to come together and co-exist. That doesn't exist in this scenario.


There wasn't "an overwhelming desire" to come together at all, many whites were actively resistant to it. It happened because the ANC fought for it over many decades, and, crucially, were backed by international action. The South African regime knew they had to change because they were becoming economically and culturally isolated from the rest of the world.
I think there are many Palestinians and Israelis who can, and do, live happily together. I don't see that as irreconcilable at all. The difference is neither have the political representation to create the compromises and conditions to bring about meaningful change at the moment, and the international community does not have a commitment to bring about the kind of pressure which would force them to do so.


I'll concede your first point. It was an ignorant thing to say. I think in my head I was more thinking about the international movement supporting it rather than the domestic realities because that's how I vaguely remember it as a kid. I just think analogies to South Africa in general are a bit simple minded and using the comparison as example of how post-Apartheid South Africa could serve as an example of how Israel could integrate 5 million + Arabs are hopelessly naive. Like I said, you have to deal with the hatred, the anti-semitism and the Islamism and the fact that in one fell swoop Jews would be a minority. Israel will never go along with that and nor should they. It would be self-suicide imo. I don't see how you can reconcile all that with some kind of peaceful integration, long term or otherwise. Stating the obvious, unlike South Africa there is no international consensus behind the right to return and there never will be. The situation is not this simple good v bad scenario like South Africa despite how some on the left see it. Sadly, and this is one of the tragedies of the situation, the Palestinian movement has been co-opted by Islamist nutjobs who want to destroy Israel and kill Jews which makes compromises even harder from the Israeli side. Of course both sides need to compromise and the domination of Likud and the right over Israeli politics for decades now has done huge damage but I think the Palestinian side also need to give up the dream of the right to return. At least for the overwhelming majority of the 5milion +. Until that happens and until Israel wrestles itself free from certain groups within that country there will be no solution.

Anyway....we can talk about this shit to the cows come home and never agree on anything.

Except....it's all Corbyn's fault.

See you on Preludin
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


Copehead wrote:a right wing cretin like Berger....bleating about racism

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby The Modernist » 08 Mar 2019, 15:50

I'm not sure what the five million figure you keep quoting is coming from.
The bottom line is Palestinians have a right to live on land they have always lived on, it is their right and shouldn't be negotiable or based on conditions . That's not an anti-Israeli point or anything like that, it's just a point of basic fairness.

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Geezee » 08 Mar 2019, 16:04

And the parallel to South Africa is entirely fair and valid. Of course as with any comparison there will be some nuances that are different - in some ways South Africa was more complex to resolve, in some ways Israel is more complex - but there is far more in common here than there is different, and referencing South Africa to highlight the stunning hypocrisy of the many who support the Israeli position is perfectly justified. And if those who support Israel's position spent more time acknowledging and accepting that, in the same way that supporters of Palestine need to accept that they are in many cases supporting highly dubious people, we'd be getting somewhere closer to a resolution.
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Jimbo » 08 Mar 2019, 16:16

Deebank wrote:A couple of things to unpack.

Firstly, there seem to be a range of ideas and definitions of what 'destruction' entails in this context.
What we are talking about though is the transition of Israel to real democracy with the same rights for all, in contrast to the the quasi-apartheit state it is now. I can see why some people with vested interests have much to gain from ramping up the outrage by classifying this as 'destruction', but re-birth might be a more accurate description.

And moving forward to a place where these bare minimum requirements for a democracy are in place is hardly utopian. It may seem unlikely but it can be done as they proved in South Africa - even though the process is not easy or quick.

It is really the only way forward.


I'm with you.

Listening to a podcast tonight and they cited a number of predicted blood baths that didn't come to pass like Vietnam, S. Africa and a few others places. IMO there is no actual reason other than "fear itself" that with some diplomacy, some politicking, some reparations, etc., that a democratic and prosperous country can't be situated in Israel/Palestine. If, however, it doesn't work out dollars to donuts it'll be the US/UK governments who fuck shit up but left up to real people it could work.
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Goat Boy » 08 Mar 2019, 16:24

The Modernist wrote:I'm not sure what the five million figure you keep quoting is coming from.
The bottom line is Palestinians have a right to live on land they have always lived on, it is their right and shouldn't be negotiable or based on conditions . That's not an anti-Israeli point or anything like that, it's just a point of basic fairness.


It's the number of the original people left and their descendents apparently although I've seen the numbers rise to around 7 million.

It's a complex subject talking about "ownership" of land and therefore perceived rights to that land, especially given the history of that region. I think your post is remarkably reductionist but whatever.

Compromises needed to be made. But not that one apparently.

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Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


Copehead wrote:a right wing cretin like Berger....bleating about racism

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Diamond Dog » 08 Mar 2019, 16:32

Meanwhile in the US of A:

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-d ... &r=US&IR=T

President Donald Trump slammed the House of Representatives' passing a resolution condemning "all forms of hate" in the wake of infighting within the Democratic caucus over Rep. Ilhan Omar's controversial statements on Israel, which were widely denounced as anti-Semitic.

"I thought yesterday's vote by the House was disgraceful because it's become — the Democrats have become an anti-Israel party," Trump told reporters shortly before boarding Air Force One on Friday morning.

"They've become an anti-Jewish party. And I thought that vote was a disgrace and so does everybody else if you get an honest answer," he continued.


Sound familiar (in a particularly convoluted way)?
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Penk! » 08 Mar 2019, 17:44

The Prof wrote:
The Modernist wrote:
Samoan wrote:
Author : Tom Bower 10 Feb 2019

[i]Corbyn’s A-levels were dismal – he scraped two with the bottom grade E and totally failed one. With no chance of following his three brothers to university, on his last day headmaster John Roberts predicted: ‘You’ll never make anything of your life.’


This makes me very angry for a number of reasons (none of which have anything to do with Jeremy Corbyn) and I wish you'd stop posting it.


I read the whole thing and thought, 'so what?'.
Are we supposed to think less of Corbyn for reading it?


Well yeah, I think the whole point is that we're supposed to think less of Corbyn.

We get verifiable information that he did badly at school, and conjecture that he therefore has a grudge against "successful people". Which is quite offensive when you think about it really.

Bower is a hatchet man for hire, he's written dirt-dealing books on the likes of Maxwell and Murdoch so if this is the best he can come up with to do Corbyn down perhaps the man isn't as evil as people clearly hope.
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby clive gash » 08 Mar 2019, 17:58

Rumour is that Copehead is his next subject.
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Penk! » 08 Mar 2019, 17:59

The Modernist wrote:I'm not sure what the five million figure you keep quoting is coming from.
The bottom line is Palestinians have a right to live on land they have always lived on, it is their right and shouldn't be negotiable or based on conditions . That's not an anti-Israeli point or anything like that, it's just a point of basic fairness.


The five million figure is the total number of Arabs living in areas occupied by Israel. I think something like 3.5 million of them live in Gaza and the West Bank, areas occupied or considered in international law occupied by Israel.
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Goat Boy » 08 Mar 2019, 19:06

,
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


Copehead wrote:a right wing cretin like Berger....bleating about racism

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Goat Boy » 08 Mar 2019, 20:39

Diamond Dog wrote:Meanwhile in the US of A:

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-d ... &r=US&IR=T

President Donald Trump slammed the House of Representatives' passing a resolution condemning "all forms of hate" in the wake of infighting within the Democratic caucus over Rep. Ilhan Omar's controversial statements on Israel, which were widely denounced as anti-Semitic.

"I thought yesterday's vote by the House was disgraceful because it's become — the Democrats have become an anti-Israel party," Trump told reporters shortly before boarding Air Force One on Friday morning.

"They've become an anti-Jewish party. And I thought that vote was a disgrace and so does everybody else if you get an honest answer," he continued.


Sound familiar (in a particularly convoluted way)?


Looking forward to your response...

Goat Boy wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:
Goat Boy wrote: If you want an example of this blind spot you can see anti-semitic tropes on this thread and on the Demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn thread some time ago as well.


Could you give examples?


There was a comment earlier on in this thread, which Yomp singled out, that invoked the dual loyalty anti-semitic canard in order to attack Berger. On the demonisation of Corbyn thread the opening post talked about the "powerful Jewish lobby" and "shadowy cabals" (deleted) and stated that the reason Corbyn was being attacked was down to a "coordinated campaign" between the Jewish lobby and their "media enablers". Even Cockhead, in a rare moment of decency said this was "offensive".

Later on in the same thread somebody said this:

It's a thing because some Jewish people are making it a thing. They are doing it because they can and because they believe they are God's chosen people, and no one has the right to criticise them.


The whole thread has an undercurrent of anti-semitism as was noted by Davey at the time:

Meanwhile- I find this whole thread pretty depressing. Far too many comments here walk the line of anti-Semitism.


The whole line of argument that it's basically a smear campaign between British Jews who object to Corbyn because of his position on Israel and/or because he's a socialist and the explicit linking of this to "media enablers" in the, presumably, right wing press invokes obvious anti-semitic tropes. Just the basic notion that these British Jews are disingenuous and liars and that their motives are not what they appear is an example of a anti-semitic hostility, the Jew as "alien", Other, loyal to Israel, someone not to be trusted.

It's clearly a smear campaign by left wing Muslims in collaboration with the left wing media to discredit Theresa May and the Tories.


That's a ridiculous statement, huh? Nobody with a brain would say that and nobody with any fucking decency would accuse the Muslims doing this were not doing so out of genuine concern at Islamophobia in the Tory party but because they simply wanted to smear those they are, allegedly, in opposition to for political reasons or because Islam is being "attacked" and they are loyal to it etc. If you said that some people would naturally assume there was some kind of underlying hostility towards Muslims, no?
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


Copehead wrote:a right wing cretin like Berger....bleating about racism

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Diamond Dog » 09 Mar 2019, 05:44

In essence then, it really makes absolutely no difference what is said, by who about who, it's anti-semitic?
And, therefore, me writing this makes me an anti-semite too.
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Jimbo » 10 Mar 2019, 03:29

One of us had a discussion with an elderly relative:

'He can't be allowed to become Prime Minister.'

'Why not?'

'It's so awful...'

'What is?'

'The way he hates the Jews.'

The last comment was spoken with real anguish, the result of continuous exposure to just two main news sources: the Daily Mail and the BBC.

What is astonishing is that just four years ago essentially no-one held this view of Jeremy Corbyn. …

Anti-semitism does exist in the Labour Party, as it exists throughout UK society, and of course these delusions should be resisted and exposed. But the smear campaign against Corbyn is not rooted in concern for the welfare of Jewish people; it is not even about blocking a political leader who cares about Palestinian rights. It is about preventing Corbyn from undoing Tony Blair's great achievement of transforming the Labour Party into a second Tory Party, thus ensuring voters have no option challenging corporate domination, including the 'humanitarian interventions' for oil and other resources. The goal is to stop Corbyn letting democracy out of its box. ...


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/51232.htm
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Diamond Dog » 10 Mar 2019, 17:35

Interesting refutation of Bower's book here:

https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/t ... ader-truth
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Jimbo » 10 Mar 2019, 17:55

Diamond Dog wrote:Interesting refutation of Bower's book here:

https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/t ... ader-truth


:shock:
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