The future of the Labour Party

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Deebank » 07 Mar 2019, 15:51

Goat Boy wrote:Sounds like utopia! Benign like


While it may be unlikely as things stand it's hardly utopian.
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Diamond Dog » 07 Mar 2019, 16:27

Goat Boy wrote:
clive gash wrote:#jewsplaining



The remaining BCB lefty division (Jimbo, Deebank, DDogshit and Jihadi Griff) are trying to perform a BCB pincer movement like the bully boys they are. You know the shit has hit the BCB fan when they’ve called for some Facebook backup from Jihadi Griff who has predictably posted some Jonathan Cook article designed to fucking bore me into anti-Zionist submission. I have very broad BCB shoulders though and a meaty BCB cock and I shall not tolerate their apologist cockwater.

#theherothatBCBneedsbutdoesntdeserve


You have Skope as your ghost writer now?
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby northernsky » 07 Mar 2019, 17:52

Goat Boy wrote:I have very broad BCB shoulders though and a meaty BCB cock


Maybe a cold shower is in order?
:?

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Diamond Dog » 07 Mar 2019, 18:39

From The Torygraph :

Amber Rudd has apologised for using “clumsy language” after she described Diane Abbott as a “coloured woman”.

The Work and Pensions Secretary sparked outcry after she used the term - widely regarded as a racist slur - during a radio interview in which she discussed abuse and racism in British politics.




And Labour has problems?
Last edited by Diamond Dog on 07 Mar 2019, 20:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Goat Boy » 07 Mar 2019, 18:40

Deebank wrote:
Goat Boy wrote:Sounds like utopia! Benign like


While it may be unlikely as things stand it's hardly utopian.


Given the context it’s about as utopian as me living in a socialist Britain where there is no poverty, milky bars for fucking all, a statue of Jeremy Corbyn on every high street and a harem of 22 year old women who take turns to suck me off every day and night. Never gonna happen.

Let’s go back a bit. Give me your hand, Deebank....

And as I said above this turns the benign but increasingly utopian idea that Israel / Palestine should progress towards being a democratic secular state with the same rights for all into somehow becoming the destruction of Israel - or indeed Israel having no right to exist.


IIRC most of the comrades back in the day had the view that Israel / Palestine should be a democratic secular state with equal rights (including the right to return) for all. Thus as well as (presumably) any jewish people having a right settle in the state, any palestinian has the same rights.

I think most zionists consider this to amount to the destruction of Israel.

Thus the calling for something as otherwise progressive and just plain 'right' as a democratic secular state with the same rights for all its citizens is seen as wanting the destruction of Israel.


In the article:

The claim that the Palestinian have a ‘right of return,’ that is, the right to the organised settlement in Israel of six million people (only a tiny and dying-off number of whom were born in what is now Israel) is one of the many codes for in fact demanding the self-abolition of the Jewish state and justifications for war to conquer and abolish it because it will not abolish itself....

Support for a collective right of return is only another form of the demand to conquer and destroy Israel, if it will not surrender.


He is saying that support for the right to return is one way that anti-semites demonstrate their anti-Semitism. You can decouple this belief from accusations of anti-semitism even if I do think the consequences of supporting this position naturally puts Jewish Israeli’s under direct threat.

the fucking President of the State of Palestine and Palestinian National Authority wrote:
Mahmoud Abbas: “On numbers of refugees, it is illogical to ask Israel to take 5 million or indeed 1 million. That would mean the end of Israel”


The end of Israel. To you what both Sean Matgamna and Mahmoud Abbas agree on is somehow ridiculous. Something that the “zionists” believe, which is your way of delegitimising their position and making it somehow silly and hysterical. A typical overreaction from the over-the-top Zionists but then what do you expect?

I don’t think it is fucking cobblers. I agree with both of them. I have a couple of problems with the right to return. Firstly, the moral justification for removing Israelis from that land and moving Palestinians in. I don’t think you can justify that regardless of what has happened in the past. Secondly the actual real-life consequences of transplanting 5 million + Arabs into Israel. In one fell swoop Jews would be the minority. Just think of all that anger and hostility and rage and toxic rancour that exists between those two groups. Just think of the prejudices on both sides but, particularly here, the anti-semitism that exists on the Arab side and which you are now catapulting into Israel. And then think of the Islamist bullshit and fight-to-the-death worldview that pollutes those same waters. Belief in the Arab world that Israel is a temporary state that will one day be destroyed is common and it’s particularly common in that region of course. Look at Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran. Destruction of Israel. Allah’s will or some shit.

I think the right to return would be a fucking disaster and present an existential threat to Israel. It’s perfectly understandable why Israel will not countenance it. Of course Corbyn supports a two state solution AND the right to return. Which would leave two states with Arab majorities side by side. Now I know he’s not a smart man – he is a 69 year old socialist after all – but he is either catastrophically stupid or it’s almost like he doesn’t give that much of a shit about Israeli Jews.

To me anyway.

Ok, let go of my hand now we're looking like a pair of BCB gays*


*Please note this is a JOKE and is not in anyway meant to offend or poke fun at any BCB gays or gays elsewhere in the world. Nor is it an unconscious expression at my own personal uncomfortableness with homosexuality and therefore an example of crypto homophobia
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


Copehead wrote:a right wing cretin like Berger....bleating about racism

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Goat Boy » 07 Mar 2019, 19:56

Jimbo wrote:The straw man in this article is the writer's new definition of antisemitism. He made that definition up - it is certainly new to me - and then argues if you don't believe Israel has a right to exist then you are ipso facto an anti-Semite.


Jimbo wrote:I agree with much of the sentiment here.


Are you high?

He didn't "make it up". David Hirsh who is very good on this subject sings from a similar hymn sheet. You might want to check out his book Contemporary Left Antisemitism if you want some bedtime reading. You've actually unintentionally hit on a huge problem when talking about this subject; which is, contemporary anti-semitism is not always recognised and through the years it has shapeshifted and morphed with anti-Zionism which it uses as a handy cloak to attack Jews. If you want an obvious example of this then check out David Icke's twitter feed (maybe not the best example for you!). It's partly why such discussions are so polarised on this issue which make it rather hard because the two sides are very far apart. If you want an example of this blind spot you can see anti-semitic tropes on this thread and on the Demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn thread some time ago as well.

The belief that Israel has no right to exist. That is the core of Left antisemitism, though it comes in more than one version and from more than one root, ranging from the skewed anti-imperialism of the Orthodox Trotskyists through Arab nationalism to Islamic chauvinism. Advocacy of the destruction of Israel, which is what separates left-wing and Islamist antisemites from honest critics of Israeli policy, should not be tolerated in the labour movement and in the serious left.


It is not just a denial of Israel's right to existence but a manifestation of hostility that arises towards Jews and a belief that Israel needs to be destroyed through policies that will facilitate this. One can hold a theoretical position on Zionism, especially historically and argue that Israel shouldn’t have happened, at least not that way and decry the displacement of the Palestinians but also acknowledge that Israel was necessarily born, recognised by the UN and in the real world its continued existence should be supported. If you want an example of how left-wing anti-semitism reveals itself then look at how some “radical” left wingers show support for Islamist extremists whose stated goals are to destroy the country, for example. Israel is, of course, a member of the imperial, racist West and all that nonsense feeds into the hatred as well. The same writer wrote an open letter to Corbyn which goes into more details about the origins of left wing anti-semitism:

https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2019-02-27/labours-antisemitism-crisis-open-letter-jeremy-corbyn?fbclid=IwAR00ppXer5HH3EJeaF7B0CvOQy3gjw8Ll4nU5gN6d0zzLgb1RMIO9bk0L8U


Jimbo wrote: The louts got what they deserved. Corbyn is being smeared. He isn't a lout. But he is a socialist and that is what this smear campaign is all about.


Jimbo wrote:That said, I do have a bias and that bias is the obviousness that a good lefty like Corbyn could not possibly be anti-Semitic.


Oh Jimbo, you magnificent BCB bastard. At least you demonstrate some kind of self-awareness mate.
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


Copehead wrote:a right wing cretin like Berger....bleating about racism

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Diamond Dog » 08 Mar 2019, 04:35

Goat Boy wrote: If you want an example of this blind spot you can see anti-semitic tropes on this thread and on the Demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn thread some time ago as well.


Could you give examples?
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Deebank » 08 Mar 2019, 10:21

A couple of things to unpack.

Firstly, there seem to be a range of ideas and definitions of what 'destruction' entails in this context.
What we are talking about though is the transition of Israel to real democracy with the same rights for all, in contrast to the the quasi-apartheit state it is now. I can see why some people with vested interests have much to gain from ramping up the outrage by classifying this as 'destruction', but re-birth might be a more accurate description.

And moving forward to a place where these bare minimum requirements for a democracy are in place is hardly utopian. It may seem unlikely but it can be done as they proved in South Africa - even though the process is not easy or quick.

It is really the only way forward.
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Toby » 08 Mar 2019, 10:29

It really is absurd that this whole situation isn't even about a British policy or issue..

But then that's fucknuts in charge for you.

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Goat Boy » 08 Mar 2019, 11:15

Toby wrote:It really is absurd that this whole situation isn't even about a British policy or issue..

But then that's fucknuts in charge for you.


Just think how much time and energy we have spent talking about this and it's all because of that allotment dwelling, socialist fucking twerp.
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


Copehead wrote:a right wing cretin like Berger....bleating about racism

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby The Modernist » 08 Mar 2019, 11:27

What's wrong with allotments?

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Diamond Dog » 08 Mar 2019, 12:29

The Modernist wrote:What's wrong with allotments?


They are inherently anti-Semitic, I would guess.
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Goat Boy » 08 Mar 2019, 12:54

Deebank wrote:A couple of things to unpack.

Firstly, there seem to be a range of ideas and definitions of what 'destruction' entails in this context.
What we are talking about though is the transition of Israel to real democracy with the same rights for all, in contrast to the the quasi-apartheit state it is now. I can see why some people with vested interests have much to gain from ramping up the outrage by classifying this as 'destruction', but re-birth might be a more accurate description.

And moving forward to a place where these bare minimum requirements for a democracy are in place is hardly utopian. It may seem unlikely but it can be done as they proved in South Africa - even though the process is not easy or quick.

It is really the only way forward.


South Africa is not analogous. You are ignoring and conveniently overlooking the very obvious desire to destroy Israel that exists in that community and the region and the Islamist mindset that infects it too. To think that they could just shake hands and live together and maybe sing on a hill like some fucking coke advert is absurd. Abbas recognises this. The right to return is actually a barrier to a solution, not part of one.
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


Copehead wrote:a right wing cretin like Berger....bleating about racism

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby The Modernist » 08 Mar 2019, 12:59

Goat Boy wrote:
Deebank wrote:A couple of things to unpack.

Firstly, there seem to be a range of ideas and definitions of what 'destruction' entails in this context.
What we are talking about though is the transition of Israel to real democracy with the same rights for all, in contrast to the the quasi-apartheit state it is now. I can see why some people with vested interests have much to gain from ramping up the outrage by classifying this as 'destruction', but re-birth might be a more accurate description.

And moving forward to a place where these bare minimum requirements for a democracy are in place is hardly utopian. It may seem unlikely but it can be done as they proved in South Africa - even though the process is not easy or quick.

It is really the only way forward.


South Africa is not analogous. You are ignoring and conveniently overlooking the very obvious desire to destroy Israel that exists in that community and the region and the Islamist mindset that infects it too. To think that they could just shake hands and live together and maybe sing on a hill like some fucking coke advert is absurd. Abbas recognises this. The right to return is actually a barrier to a solution, not part of one.


I think the position of Palestinians is very much analogous to that of blacks under apartheid. You have become so obsessed with winning the argument on this that you have gone into denial on many aspects of modern Israel.

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Goat Boy » 08 Mar 2019, 13:00

Diamond Dog wrote:
Goat Boy wrote: If you want an example of this blind spot you can see anti-semitic tropes on this thread and on the Demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn thread some time ago as well.


Could you give examples?


There was a comment earlier on in this thread, which Yomp singled out, that invoked the dual loyalty anti-semitic canard in order to attack Berger. On the demonisation of Corbyn thread the opening post talked about the "powerful Jewish lobby" and "shadowy cabals" (deleted) and stated that the reason Corbyn was being attacked was down to a "coordinated campaign" between the Jewish lobby and their "media enablers". Even Cockhead, in a rare moment of decency said this was "offensive".

Later on in the same thread somebody said this:

It's a thing because some Jewish people are making it a thing. They are doing it because they can and because they believe they are God's chosen people, and no one has the right to criticise them.


The whole thread has an undercurrent of anti-semitism as was noted by Davey at the time:

Meanwhile- I find this whole thread pretty depressing. Far too many comments here walk the line of anti-Semitism.


The whole line of argument that it's basically a smear campaign between British Jews who object to Corbyn because of his position on Israel and/or because he's a socialist and the explicit linking of this to "media enablers" in the, presumably, right wing press invokes obvious anti-semitic tropes. Just the basic notion that these British Jews are disingenuous and liars and that their motives are not what they appear is an example of a anti-semitic hostility, the Jew as "alien", Other, loyal to Israel, someone not to be trusted.

It's clearly a smear campaign by left wing Muslims in collaboration with the left wing media to discredit Theresa May and the Tories.


That's a ridiculous statement, huh? Nobody with a brain would say that and nobody with any fucking decency would accuse the Muslims doing this were not doing so out of genuine concern at Islamophobia in the Tory party but because they simply wanted to smear those they are, allegedly, in opposition to for political reasons or because Islam is being "attacked" and they are loyal to it etc. If you said that some people would naturally assume there was some kind of underlying hostility towards Muslims, no?
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


Copehead wrote:a right wing cretin like Berger....bleating about racism

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Goat Boy » 08 Mar 2019, 13:06

The Modernist wrote:
Goat Boy wrote:
Deebank wrote:A couple of things to unpack.

Firstly, there seem to be a range of ideas and definitions of what 'destruction' entails in this context.
What we are talking about though is the transition of Israel to real democracy with the same rights for all, in contrast to the the quasi-apartheit state it is now. I can see why some people with vested interests have much to gain from ramping up the outrage by classifying this as 'destruction', but re-birth might be a more accurate description.

And moving forward to a place where these bare minimum requirements for a democracy are in place is hardly utopian. It may seem unlikely but it can be done as they proved in South Africa - even though the process is not easy or quick.

It is really the only way forward.


South Africa is not analogous. You are ignoring and conveniently overlooking the very obvious desire to destroy Israel that exists in that community and the region and the Islamist mindset that infects it too. To think that they could just shake hands and live together and maybe sing on a hill like some fucking coke advert is absurd. Abbas recognises this. The right to return is actually a barrier to a solution, not part of one.


I think the position of Palestinians is very much analogous to that of blacks under apartheid. You have become so obsessed with winning the argument on this that you have gone into denial on many aspects of modern Israel.


Read what I said again and understand why using South Africa as an example of how two groups of people can come together is not applicable in the case of Israel and Palestine after right to return. There are similarities but there are crucial, critical differences that are so huge that I don't consider the Israel/South Africa analogy particularly appropriate. At least in South Africa there was an overwhelming desire to come together and co-exist. That doesn't exist in this scenario. If you think transplanting 5 million + Arabs into Israel is gonna work out fine then good luck to you. I think it would be disastrous.

The notion that I am in denial of the worst aspects of Israel is a funny one based on me not believing that analogy is particularly worthwhile when dealing with the consequences of the right to return and the singular nature of this conflict but fill yer boots.
Last edited by Goat Boy on 08 Mar 2019, 13:29, edited 2 times in total.
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


Copehead wrote:a right wing cretin like Berger....bleating about racism

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Samoan » 08 Mar 2019, 13:25

Goat Boy wrote:
Toby wrote:It really is absurd that this whole situation isn't even about a British policy or issue..

But then that's fucknuts in charge for you.


Just think how much time and energy we have spent talking about this and it's all because of that allotment dwelling, socialist fucking twerp.

The man doesn't read. He leaves that up to Seumas Milne. It's an affectation, playing at being "Son of the Soil" as allotments were traditionally urban working class. ( apropos of reminiscence, I remember Mimsy writing on here about first arriving in the UK and on seeing them, she thought they were shanty towns.) He hates his middle class origins and has always been at enormous pains to hide them.

Author : Tom Bower 10 Feb 2019

Corbyn’s A-levels were dismal – he scraped two with the bottom grade E and totally failed one. With no chance of following his three brothers to university, on his last day headmaster John Roberts predicted: ‘You’ll never make anything of your life.’
Afterwards his embarrassed mother would tell people that it was her son’s poor handwriting that prevented him getting to university.
Later, she suggested he enrol at the Polytechnic of North London in Holloway to study trade unionism, and he agreed. But Corbyn barely entered the building before he abandoned the course.
‘I was utterly bored,’ he would say later, but academic work was beyond his abilities.

He and his brother Piers would in later years craft a story of defiance: how he had walked out of the polytechnic after an argument with a lecturer about his course.

Just as his first wife would be shocked by his failure to read so too was his friend and constituency agent, Keith Veness.
When they first met, Veness handed Corbyn a copy of Trotsky’s History Of The Russian Revolution. Six months later Corbyn returned
the book, still in its wrapping. ‘He wasn’t interested in reading anything,’ Veness concluded. ‘It was a waste of time talking to him about books.’

Veness could not decide whether Corbyn – who relies for his news on The Morning Star and occasionally the Guardian – was unintellectual or just lazy. Stung by his academic failures, Corbyn came to loathe achievers, especially undergraduates with ambitions to get to the top.

Most of all he hated the successful and prosperous, and identified with losers.
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Goat Boy » 08 Mar 2019, 13:30

The lass and I have an allotment as do my folks.

If Corbyn becomes PM we'll definitely need it for when the economy goes tits up, eh? Eh?
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


Copehead wrote:a right wing cretin like Berger....bleating about racism

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Belle Lettre » 08 Mar 2019, 13:36

The regular early morning yell of horror was the sound of Arthur Dent waking up and suddenly remembering where he was.
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Samoan » 08 Mar 2019, 13:50

Goat Boy wrote:The lass and I have an allotment as do my folks.

If Corbyn becomes PM we'll definitely need it for when the economy goes tits up, eh? Eh?

That's great. I've a number of friends, and my boss who lives in a flat who do.

I thought you had a big back garden ?
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