The future of the Labour Party

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Deebank
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Deebank » 03 Mar 2019, 13:19

caramba wrote:In DB’s original post he talked in highly emotive, overly dramatic weasel words about how JC had “faced down” racists and anti-semites “on the street”.

Having seen the oft-repeated yet never proven tale of Corbyn’s mother’s presence at the Battle of Cable Street regularly cited as fact, I asked DB for some “easily verifiable” examples to back his claim.

Rather than providing the hard facts requested, DB deleted the bit about “easily verifiable”, and provided a - while doubtless true - totally irrelevant narrative about some mate of his.

As for The Prof and Penk’s pointing out that JC had participated in various anti-NF and anti-apartheid actions in the 70s…

So fucking what?

Like many past and present Labour supporters here – yourselves included, I would hope – I also marched and demonstrated against fascism and the apartheid back then.

Our doing so doesn’t – and shouldn’t – grant us lifetime immunity against facing hard questions about related matters many years after the fact.

As for Jimbo’s typically cut and paste list; a quick look through reveals that most points mentioned involve Corbyn’s signing various measures.

Had he bothered to read what he was posting, Jimbo might have noticed that fully one third of the 40 items covered do not even mention The Beloved Leader at all.

Sorry, but I have better things to than wasting more time reading the rest of J’s lazy contribution than he spent googling ‘Corbyn’ and ‘anti-semitism’ and then importing what he found into this thread.


The mate of mine is one of the major players in this whole farrago who has been traduced as an anti-semite and expelled from the party.
As I said, in contrast to, say, the Independent Group he has actually been on 'the front line' against fascism in this country, such as it is. He is both jewish and a supporter of Jeremy Corbyn. It is with him and some of his comrades that this anti-semitism row originates. As you can imagine the son of a rabbi being an ardent supporter of Palestinian rights has never sat well with a lot of people in the party and he has come in for a mountain of shit because of this.

And would anyone sriously deny that Corbyn is the sort of politician that gets involved in anti-fascism?

And for the record I think you added the 'easily verifiable bit into your post after I had quoted you.
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby clive gash » 03 Mar 2019, 16:30

I'm not a racist, I've got 2 Roachford CDs :)
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Diamond Dog wrote:...yet it quite clearly hit the target with you and your nonce, didn't it?

...a multitude of innuendo and hearsay...


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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Samoan » 03 Mar 2019, 19:51

He has just been egged.

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Diamond Dog » 04 Mar 2019, 08:48

Tell you what Caramba - can you provide any easily verifiable words or actions that prove that Corbyn is anti-semitic?
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Powehi » 04 Mar 2019, 08:58

Diamond Dog wrote:Tell you what Caramba - can you provide any easily verifiable words or actions that prove that Corbyn is anti-semitic?


I never said he was an anti-semite. Perhaps you could show me some easily verifiable examples of where I did

All I did was to ask someone who made over-exaggerated claims about JC to back them up.

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Diamond Dog » 04 Mar 2019, 09:26

No you didn't. You asked for the evidence, it was provided, and then you stated that something you did thirty years ago isn't evidence of your political convictions.
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Deebank » 04 Mar 2019, 09:44

caramba wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:Tell you what Caramba - can you provide any easily verifiable words or actions that prove that Corbyn is anti-semitic?


I never said he was an anti-semite. Perhaps you could show me some easily verifiable examples of where I did

All I did was to ask someone who made over-exaggerated claims about JC to back them up.


I don't think it's an exageration to say that JC has been closely associated with a number of anti-racist / anti-fascist groups and causes for all of his political life. It is what he was best known for until a few years ago. And while I never saw him picketing the shops that sold Blood & Honour in Carnaby Street (for instance) I know he was a regular speaker at many of these sorts of events and was more often than not at the front of the march.

It seems a bit stupid to try and deny this.
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Powehi » 04 Mar 2019, 10:36

Deebank wrote:
caramba wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:Tell you what Caramba - can you provide any easily verifiable words or actions that prove that Corbyn is anti-semitic?


I never said he was an anti-semite. Perhaps you could show me some easily verifiable examples of where I did

All I did was to ask someone who made over-exaggerated claims about JC to back them up.


I don't think it's an exageration to say that JC has been closely associated with a number of anti-racist / anti-fascist groups and causes for all of his political life. It is what he was best known for until a few years ago. And while I never saw him picketing the shops that sold Blood & Honour in Carnaby Street (for instance) I know he was a regular speaker at many of these sorts of events and was more often than not at the front of the march.

It seems a bit stupid to try and deny this.


I'm not trying to deny anything.

You used totally OTT descriptions about Corbyn's involvement in various anti-racism/anti-semitic actions I then asked you - and you were unable - to justify.

My point was simply that Corbyn seems to be getting an awful lot of free passes on this sort of stuff.

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Powehi » 04 Mar 2019, 10:39

While DB’s anecdotal, impossible to verify and totally irrelevant to Jeremy Corbyn answer may have been acceptable to you, it certainly didn’t satisfy me. And as the person who posed the question, it was me and not you that the answer had to satisfy.

As for the rest of your post.

Here’s your interpretation of what I wrote.

Diamond Dog wrote: ...you stated that something you did thirty years ago isn't evidence of your political convictions.



And here’s what I actually did write.

caramba wrote:
Like many past and present Labour supporters here – yourselves included, I would hope – I also marched and demonstrated against fascism and the apartheid back then.

Our doing so doesn’t – and shouldn’t – grant us lifetime immunity against facing hard questions about related matters many years after the fact.




Rather different, I think many posters here will agree.

If you can’t be bothered to accurately quote what I (or anyone else who happens to disagree with you) say(s), DD, there seems to be little point in my attempting to engage you any more.

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Diamond Dog » 04 Mar 2019, 10:42

Oh good :)
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Goat Boy » 04 Mar 2019, 11:34

Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


Copehead wrote:a right wing cretin like Berger....bleating about racism

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Jimbo » 04 Mar 2019, 15:18



I agree with much of the sentiment here. What I disagree with is that Corbyn is antisemitic as defined in this screed.

The left-wing antisemites do not only criticize Israel. They condemn it outright and deny its right to exist.
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Deebank » 04 Mar 2019, 18:52

Jimbo wrote:


I agree with much of the sentiment here. What I disagree with is that Corbyn is antisemitic as defined in this screed.

The left-wing antisemites do not only criticize Israel. They condemn it outright and deny its right to exist.



I suppose it depends on what you mean by 'denying Israel the right to exist'.

IIRC most of the comrades back in the day had the view that Israel / Palestine should be a democratic secular state with equal rights (including the right to return) for all. Thus as well as (presumably) any jewish people having a right settle in the state, any palestinian has the same rights.

I think most zionists consider this to amount to the destruction of Israel.

Thus the calling for something as otherwise progressive and just plain 'right' as a democratic secular state with the same rights for all its citizens is seen as wanting the destruction of Israel.
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Penk! » 04 Mar 2019, 19:05

I think what everyone is trying to say is "it's complicated"-
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Rorschach » 05 Mar 2019, 11:54



Classic straw man argument. Identify a group of people with a specific belief and then dismantle that belief, thus appearing to dismantle the group of people.
It needs to prove the identification first.
Bugger off.

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Jimbo » 06 Mar 2019, 01:25

It just fucking hit me. By now you know a similar thing is happening in the US with the Democrats, that if you have even a jot of openly stated sympathy for the Palestinians you are an anti-Semite. And guess who in the presidential race that means? Sanders, Gabbard and I don't know who else but from now on that means Sanders, Gabbard and I don't know who else are branded JEW HATING RADICAL. That clears a lane for the cheating establishment HRC types, Biden, Booker, Harris and Hickenlooper? Yep, it's all a cynical political ruse folks, a way to dump the US socialistic types ala Corbyn in Britain.
Cold War Number One: 70 years of daily national stupidity. Cold War Number Two: Still in its youth, but just as stupid. - William Blum

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Jimbo » 06 Mar 2019, 09:21

And it's too fucking bad for you if you don't like me pasting shit from elsewhere on the internet but if I read something and think it's relevant to the our discussion here then I, for some psychological reason, feel an 'ooh ooh" compulsion to share it. And it's not about reading something that confirms my bias. If I read something that makes an opposing point and changes my thinking I'd post it and maybe even apologize. So far I have not read something like that. That said, I do have a bias and that bias is the obviousness that a good lefty like Corbyn could not possibly be anti-Semitic. And if you don't want to open my links "just because" then you are a victim and probably have succumb to their propaganda thus proving (hooray for them) that propaganda works.

Anti-Capitalism is NOT Anti-Semitism

https://off-guardian.org/2019/03/05/ant ... -semitism/

“antisemitism” in Labour is a political invention, used to curb a popular movement against corruption, austerity and growing inequality.

Labour doesn’t have an antisemitism crisis. It doesn’t need to “listen more” or “try harder”. It isn’t toxic. Or racist. Or full of bullies. None of that is true.
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Deebank » 06 Mar 2019, 09:28

Good for Baroness Warsi for using Labours 'woes' to 'leverage' the (what should be a) much bigger issue with islamophobia in the tory party.

I suggest people should compare and contrast.
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Powehi » 06 Mar 2019, 10:26

Deebank wrote:Good for Baroness Warsi for using Labours 'woes' to 'leverage' the (what should be a) much bigger issue with islamophobia in the tory party.

I suggest people should compare and contrast.



Sorry, DB, HMS Reasoned Argument cast off and set sail on a one-way voyage to Tokyo at 0921 this morning

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Jimbo » 06 Mar 2019, 10:37

caramba wrote:
Deebank wrote:Good for Baroness Warsi for using Labours 'woes' to 'leverage' the (what should be a) much bigger issue with islamophobia in the tory party.

I suggest people should compare and contrast.



Sorry, DB, HMS Reasoned Argument cast off and set sail on a one-way voyage to Tokyo at 0921 this morning


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Tool.
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