The future of the Labour Party

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Diamond Dog
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Diamond Dog » 15 Dec 2017, 09:07

Toby wrote:We should be judging politicians by their competence more than anything else. I'm in no doubt that this government has more than its fair share of incompetents, but the next iteration will be exactly the same.


But it's actually much easier to quantify with Ministers because they actually are there to do something other than be a constituency MP.

And this Govt, let's be fair, is a fucking shambles, led by a PM who is completely out of her depth. She took her own Govt into an unnecssary election (to give her a strong mandate with the EU) and then managed to lose that. She then makes a pact with the DUP, that has come back to bite her on her arse over the border issue (we'll stil have an open border with the EU - a bit strange considering it was all about 'taking back control'). And then to really compound it, she can't even get her own MP's to vote accordingly over a major Brexit bill - the day before she goes back to the EU to try to persuade them to move onto the next stage of the negotiation (a negotiation that is going to make the one we're just completing look like Janet & John).

Have you any faith in her, or her Govt, to get a good deal?
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby The Modernist » 15 Dec 2017, 09:08

Toby wrote:So if someone is incompetent but means well, that's ok?

The Modernist wrote: Obviously competence in any job is important,

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Dor-Relip Hotels and Bathings » 15 Dec 2017, 09:32

Can any of you remember a sitting UK government - in your lifetime - that did a good job, generally speaking?
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Diamond Dog » 15 Dec 2017, 09:34

!!VAPRANT!! wrote:Can any of you remember a sitting UK government - in your lifetime - that did a good job, generally speaking?


I think Blair's first govt did the job it had set out to do. Much as I dislike Thatcher, she absolutely did what she was elected to do for (probably) the first two Govt's. I think Wilson can be said to have been okay.
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Deebank » 15 Dec 2017, 09:44

!!VAPRANT!! wrote:Can any of you remember a sitting UK government - in your lifetime - that did a good job, generally speaking?


No government - whatever the stripe - is ever going to get everything right. Politics is the art of the possible (or whatever the phrase is). Compromises have to be made. It is always about voting for the least bad option

Despite having a long-term hatred of 'New Labour' that dated back to the reforms of the '80s when I was in the party and actively involved in politics, I was relatively content in that brief honeymoon period in the late '90s.

By the way you posted a singular 'Cunt' or maybe 'CUNT' on my birthday thread a couple of years ago.
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Dor-Relip Hotels and Bathings » 15 Dec 2017, 09:49

:lol:

Oh, I make an exception in your case, you petty, snivelling mouthbreather.
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Toby » 15 Dec 2017, 09:53

Diamond Dog wrote:Have you any faith in her, or her Govt, to get a good deal?


I don't really. But the government's position is at least clear, in that they want to deliver Brexit.

I don't think Labour has a clear position at all, apart from the fact that McDonnell & Corbyn want out in their heart of hearts, but they know that the people that voted for them in the election want in.

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Deebank » 15 Dec 2017, 10:35

!!VAPRANT!! wrote::lol:

Oh, I make an exception in your case, you petty, snivelling mouthbreather.



Good to know I got under your skin :lol:
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Rayge » 15 Dec 2017, 11:33

!!VAPRANT!! wrote:Can any of you remember a sitting UK government - in your lifetime - that did a good job, generally speaking?


Well, I was around for the last two years of the post-war Atlee government :) , which is probably the best we ever had, but from the time I was conscious, the 1966-70 Wilson government kept us out of the Vietnam War and won the World Cup.
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Diamond Dog » 15 Dec 2017, 11:49

Toby wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:Have you any faith in her, or her Govt, to get a good deal?


I don't really. But the government's position is at least clear, in that they want to deliver Brexit.

I don't think Labour has a clear position at all, apart from the fact that McDonnell & Corbyn want out in their heart of hearts, but they know that the people that voted for them in the election want in.


Labour's position is confused - at best. I grant you that.

But Labour aren't the Govt delivering on their own referendum result.

May herself was a Remain campaigner - she doesn't want to deliver Brexit, she is forced to do so. Her position is, in many ways, worse than Corbyn's (and that takes some believing)... she not only is a Remain person, she actually put herself forward to be the PM delivering Leave! I mean, how fucked is that?!
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Samoan » 15 Dec 2017, 13:05

Toby wrote:..
I don't think Labour has a clear position at all, apart from the fact that McDonnell & Corbyn want out in their heart of hearts, but they know that the people that voted for them in the election want in.

They don't currently have a definitive stance and I get why, it's understandable.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/11/jeremy-corbyn-refuses-to-firm-up-labours-brexit-plans

I do differ from you in thinking that Labour voters were necessarily Remain voters.

Personally I've always declined to confirm, when doorstopped or on exiting the polling station (or indeed I've sent them on a wild goose chase) my voting intentions about anything to any political party activist. I can't say anyone ever canvassed me regarding the referendum.
That's the way old Labour trained me up - " even though it sticks in your craw and you're smiling through gritted teeth, tell a Tory you're voting for them so it mucks up their canvassing and they waste time and manpower sending someone round to *knock you up* on polling day when you've already voted Labour."
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Dor-Relip Hotels and Bathings » 15 Dec 2017, 13:07

Did any of you see QT last night?

I had to watch half of it through my hands, and Isabel Oakeshott is appalling, but it reminded me that there were/are a fair number of working-class Labour voters in favour of Brexit.
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Samoan » 15 Dec 2017, 13:19

I didn't catch it, no. I may have a look on the I Player

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Diamond Dog » 15 Dec 2017, 13:22

!!VAPRANT!! wrote:... but it reminded me that there were/are a fair number of working-class Labour voters in favour of Brexit.


Oh there are loads of them. Just as there were many Tories who were fervently Remain.
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Toby » 15 Dec 2017, 15:24

!!VAPRANT!! wrote:Did any of you see QT last night?

I had to watch half of it through my hands, and Isabel Oakeshott is appalling, but it reminded me that there were/are a fair number of working-class Labour voters in favour of Brexit.


This is the issue that could still kill Labour in the north. If they scupper Brexit (which is entirely possible) the communities that voted Leave/and are trad Labour - will never vote for them again.

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby The Prof » 15 Dec 2017, 15:48

!!VAPRANT!! wrote:Isabel Oakeshott is appalling


She's awful and her attitude of a family of 5 can live on a £1 bag of porridge for a week reeks too.

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Deebank » 15 Dec 2017, 16:08

The Prof wrote:
!!VAPRANT!! wrote:Isabel Oakeshott is appalling


She's awful and her attitude of a family of 5 can live on a £1 bag of porridge for a week reeks too.


It's in her favour that she's the one who publicised the story of Cameron and the pig's head though.
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby The Prof » 15 Dec 2017, 16:27

....to sell a book.

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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Deebank » 15 Dec 2017, 16:43

The Prof wrote:....to sell a book.


Sure. She's dreadful, but that story cheered me up at the time.
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Re: The future of the Labour Party

Postby Toby » 15 Dec 2017, 16:49

Related no doubt to Michael Oakeshott, the stand out conservative philosopher of the 20th century.