In or out?

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks

Should the UK remain in the European Union?

Yes we should stay in
57
86%
No we should leave
5
8%
Abstain
4
6%
 
Total votes: 66

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Deebank
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In or out?

Postby Deebank » 18 Apr 2016, 17:44

We have done this before I think, but, as the campaign is now well under way, are you for staying in the EU or getting out.
Of course only UK residents will be able to vote, but it would be interesting to get everyones' opinion.

Current poling has the 'Remain' camp or whatever they're called eight points ahead.
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Re: In or out?

Postby The Great Defector » 18 Apr 2016, 18:08

Stay in, think it's better for us if you do.
Last edited by The Great Defector on 18 Apr 2016, 18:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: In or out?

Postby jimboo » 18 Apr 2016, 18:22

Deebank wrote:We have done this before I think, but, as the campaign is now well under way, are you for staying in the EU or getting out.
Of course only UK residents will be able to vote, but it would be interesting to get everyones' opinion.

Current poling has the 'Remain' camp or whatever they're called eight points ahead.



You cannot trust the polls.
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Re: In or out?

Postby The Great Defector » 18 Apr 2016, 18:25

jimboo wrote:
Deebank wrote:We have done this before I think, but, as the campaign is now well under way, are you for staying in the EU or getting out.
Of course only UK residents will be able to vote, but it would be interesting to get everyones' opinion.

Current poling has the 'Remain' camp or whatever they're called eight points ahead.



You cannot trust the polls.

Racist.
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Re: In or out?

Postby frimley_greener » 18 Apr 2016, 18:25

I am surprised that given the import of the decision about to be made,and the huge effect the media will have on the outcome,that there is not a "decision null and void" rider should the turn out fall below an agreed threshold.
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Re: In or out?

Postby Samoan » 18 Apr 2016, 18:59

Deebank wrote:Of course only UK residents will be able to vote, but it would be interesting to get everyones' opinion.

Not all can vote -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32810887

Who will be able to vote?

British, Irish and Commonwealth citizens over 18 who are resident in the UK, along with UK nationals living abroad who have been on the electoral register in the UK in the past 15 years. Members of the House of Lords and Commonwealth citizens in Gibraltar will also be eligible, unlike in a general election.

Citizens from EU countries - apart from Ireland, Malta and Cyprus - will not get a vote.
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Re: In or out?

Postby The Prof » 18 Apr 2016, 19:41

We're supposed to make a decision based on future doom-filled scenarios guessed at by crooks and liars.

"If we're in it will by THIS bad"

"If we're out it will be THAT bad"

(In btw)

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Re: In or out?

Postby jimboo » 18 Apr 2016, 19:43

For me , it's all about the price of fags and beer on me holidays.
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Re: In or out?

Postby Diamond Dog » 18 Apr 2016, 21:10

I'm firmly pro-European.

However - the majority of debate I have heard has been puerile at worst and misguided cliché at best.

Hearing Osbourne today giving a figure of x on how much it will cost each UK family over the next y years is depressingly simplistic, even for that nimrod.

I kind of wish someone would just say "We actually can't be certain but this would strongly suggest that". Now that would be refreshingly honest.
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Re: In or out?

Postby jimboo » 18 Apr 2016, 21:20

Diamond Dog wrote:I'm firmly pro-European.




Based on what exactly ?
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Re: In or out?

Postby Diamond Dog » 18 Apr 2016, 21:31

jimboo wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:I'm firmly pro-European.




Based on what exactly ?


I think there is this mythical land which anti-Europeans live in, whereby we leave the EU, we get stronger ties and more profitable trade deals with those in the EU, we increase our trade to the rest of the world (again, with better deals for us), where immigration falls to zero, where migrants actually no longer even want to come to the UK (which is bizarre, considering we're all going to be so much better than we currently are), where our balance of trade deficit is wiped out overnight and where we all miraculously become a manufacturing powerhouse again, and everything we import becomes cheaper too.

That's a very negative way of thinking about the vote, I agree. But the leave campaign actually do have to work harder to convince us of their case - because we are currently in and have been for 40+ years now- yet I hear nothing besides the above. And it's all bollocks - bar immigration from the EU. And stopping immigrants coming over to do the lowly paid jobs us British appear not to want to do, doesn't sound like the most compelling argument to leave, quite frankly.
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Re: In or out?

Postby Toby » 18 Apr 2016, 21:40

Britain has over the years managed to negotiate a pretty good deal with the EU. We kept our currency for example, and we have border policies that are not the same elsewhere (obvs because we're an island).

In the main, the reason we didn't join the EEC at an earlier date was partly because De Gaulle didn't want us, but also because at the times when negotiations to join were offered, economically it did not make sense to do so. Just as in 1999 it did not make sense for us to join the single currency because the Pound was strong.

Personally I think the biggest argument that the Remain camp have is that if we were to exit, then any terms offered to us if we wanted to rejoin at some point in the future would be incredibly harsh and I suspect the Germans would veto it. We would then be consigned to sitting on the periphery of the continent.

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Re: In or out?

Postby jimboo » 18 Apr 2016, 22:16

We have managed to govern ourselves and trade outside of the EU though in the past haven't we ? My company are Italian part owned and we trade with Europe everyday , the common consensus is that in or out it will not make any difference at all , business is business.

The anti european argument made by many DD is that migrants may want to come here more if we are better off , however , we would not have to let them in , I am afraid that for many being outside the EU means less migrants. The more enlightend of us may not agree but it is a major issue.

I need to know more , not having the same currency and the fact that we pretty much veto everything we don't like anyway I don't see the difference in or out. Shouldn't an EU steel producer be protected from cheap imports ?
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Re: In or out?

Postby jimboo » 18 Apr 2016, 22:20

Toby wrote:
Personally I think the biggest argument that the Remain camp have is that if we were to exit, then any terms offered to us if we wanted to rejoin at some point in the future would be incredibly harsh and I suspect the Germans would veto it. We would then be consigned to sitting on the periphery of the continent.


Huh ? If we vote out , we vote out. What would we rejoin for ? I don't understand , are we voting to flounce ?
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Re: In or out?

Postby Diamond Dog » 18 Apr 2016, 22:32

jimboo wrote:
Toby wrote:
Personally I think the biggest argument that the Remain camp have is that if we were to exit, then any terms offered to us if we wanted to rejoin at some point in the future would be incredibly harsh and I suspect the Germans would veto it. We would then be consigned to sitting on the periphery of the continent.


Huh ? If we vote out , we vote out. What would we rejoin for ? I don't understand , are we voting to flounce ?


The logic of that is that we voted to enter so why are we now having another vote?
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Re: In or out?

Postby Diamond Dog » 18 Apr 2016, 22:33

jimboo wrote:I need to know more , not having the same currency and the fact that we pretty much veto everything we don't like anyway I don't see the difference in or out.


So why vote to leave then?
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Re: In or out?

Postby jimboo » 18 Apr 2016, 23:24

Diamond Dog wrote:
jimboo wrote:I need to know more , not having the same currency and the fact that we pretty much veto everything we don't like anyway I don't see the difference in or out.


So why vote to leave then?


:) or to stay. I don't know yet how I will vote . I need to know more. So far in this thread and from the opposing campaigns no one really seems to know how it will work out either way , leaving to the general belief that it is a vote on immigration and total self government.
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Re: In or out?

Postby never/ever » 18 Apr 2016, 23:47

It'd be more interesting to have Europe vote whether to keep the Poms in or not.
Bit of a rude awakening I think. ;)
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Re: In or out?

Postby Diamond Dog » 19 Apr 2016, 05:59

jimboo wrote: I need to know more. So far in this thread and from the opposing campaigns no one really seems to know how it will work out either way , leaving to the general belief that it is a vote on immigration and total self government.


Well that will be the crucial part of the debate - if the leave campaign can get the centre of the debate to be just that, then they will feel they have a good chance to win. The stay campaign needs to shift the focus to all the positives they say we get from staying put - something they are not doing brilliantly, it must be said- to really fancy their chances.
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Re: In or out?

Postby Conrad Knight Socks » 19 Apr 2016, 07:47

In the long term I expect being in or out makes little difference to business with Europe. Proximity means that the UK, one of the major manufacturing countries and one of the major innovation countries in the world, will trade with the European continent. The tariffs may have a punishment charge to begin with, but eventually I would expect that to fizzle out. In order to trade the UK will have to sign up to the same kind of deal EFTA members do - that is all the same stuff EU members have to do but with no say in framing the rules.

Leaving would mean the UK loses the EU clout in international trade, and may well have a significant impact on inward investment to the UK - access to a market of 400m will always be more important than access to a market of 70m.

In international affairs generally, the UK could plausibly revive the significance of the Commonwealth as a force for consensus but there are quite a lot of bridges to be rebuilt there. However the UK could do this just as easily while remaining in the EU.

More generally though I think the EU is beneficial to all its members both financially and socially, and the citizens of the EU have undoubtedly benefited from the very high levels of co-operation. Of course there will be winners and losers but there will be under any system. It is not perfect - I wish the Parliament had proper teeth, so that the Commission was more accountable and countries could not just ignore directives they didn't like. In general I favour more integration rather than less.
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