gender-free bathrooms

[Velvis]

Who am I to tell a woman that her personal apprehension over new toilet rules is wrong? What business is it of mine?

It's a legitimate issue. But as hatz said above, statistically speaking, there are probably more incidences of violence against trans women and trans men over bathroom use than against cis women by trans women in bathrooms.

[Betty Denim]

It seems really straightforward to me. Forget biology. If a person "thinks" and identifies themself as a woman, they're a woman. If a person "thinks" and identifies themself as a man, they're a man. I don't really care what physical bits and bobs they have or don't have or what the law says.

i agree completely.

I do too. I was slow to come to this position, but I have had certain friends in my life for the past five years or so who have educated me. After all, who am I to tell them their personal experience is wrong? What business is it of mine? And these are good people who treat others well. By every yardstick that is important to me, they are the people who should be considered "normal". They are not sick or perverted.

And it is vulgar and reductive to say of them, "I don't care who they fuck." A person's gender identity is a lot more than a rutting behavior.

Huh? That was in response to an accusation that I think lesbians/gay men/bisexuals are aberrations.

I don't care about people's sexuality. Is sexuality not fucking now? Or about who you'd like to fuck?

I'd be inclined to 'reduce' my own sexuality to fucking. But I can be a bit vulgar, so feel free to use your own preferred term.

Gender is something different altogether. Nothing to do with fucking. And I haven't once given any indication that I think transgender people are sick or perverted. I mean some of them probably are. Just as some non-transgender people are. But by virtue of it? No. I simply haven't.

[Velvis]

Gender identity, in addition to being sexual, is also presexual and postsexual. Children identify with a gender before they even know what sex is, and adults move into old age and still identify as a gender after they have stopped having sex.

[Betty Denim]

Who am I to tell a woman that her personal apprehension over new toilet rules is wrong? What business is it of mine?

It's a legitimate issue. But as hatz said above, statistically speaking, there are probably more incidences of violence against trans women and trans men over bathroom use than against cis women by trans women in bathrooms.

Red herring. I am not talking about violent trans women. I am talking about the potential for violence from men.

But, while we're at it, it's worthwhile noting that sexual and violent crime rates do not alter with transition, studies in both Europe and the USA confirm this. Studies also show transgender women commit sexual violence 6% more than men, according to a Californian study of inmates.

[Belle Lettre]

Back to quix's observation: Unisex bathrooms make me think of Ally McBeal

I assume there would be urinals as well as cubicles? I don't really care to walk in on that. I don't have much of an opinion on the trans thing but am following the discussion with interest.

[Betty Denim]

Gender identity, in addition to being sexual, is also presexual and postsexual. Children identify with a gender before they even know what sex is, and adults move into old age and still identify as a gender after they have stopped having sex.

How is this relevant to you claiming that I think anyone whose sexuality is not heterosexuality is an aberration?

[Velvis]

Who am I to tell a woman that her personal apprehension over new toilet rules is wrong? What business is it of mine?

It's a legitimate issue. But as hatz said above, statistically speaking, there are probably more incidences of violence against trans women and trans men over bathroom use than against cis women by trans women in bathrooms.

Red herring. I am not talking about violent trans women. I am talking about the potential for violence from men.

But, while we're at it, it's worthwhile noting that sexual and violent crime rates do not alter with transition, studies in both Europe and the USA confirm this. Studies also show transgender women commit sexual violence 6% more than men, according to a Californian study of inmates.

Interesting.

But we should differentiate between gendered restrooms which admit trans people and gender-free bathrooms. I think they are different issues.

[Velvis]

Gender identity, in addition to being sexual, is also presexual and postsexual. Children identify with a gender before they even know what sex is, and adults move into old age and still identify as a gender after they have stopped having sex.

How is this relevant to you claiming that I think anyone whose sexuality is not heterosexuality is an aberration?

It's not. It's relevant to your earlier post where you said it IS about who we want to fuck.

[Betty Denim]

I'm interested in self-identification.

Honest question: if we are only what we think we are, then does this extend to anything? If not, why not? If so, why so?

I mean, for instance, can I be a 12 year old African-American boy, please?

[Velvis]

And I'm willing to accept that you're not homo-trans-phobic. Maybe my reading of your posts was faulty.

[Betty Denim]

Gender identity, in addition to being sexual, is also presexual and postsexual. Children identify with a gender before they even know what sex is, and adults move into old age and still identify as a gender after they have stopped having sex.

How is this relevant to you claiming that I think anyone whose sexuality is not heterosexuality is an aberration?

It's not. It's relevant to your earlier post where you said it IS about who we want to fuck.

What is? Gender? I did not.

[Velvis]

I'm interested in self-identification.

Honest question: if we are only what we think we are, then does this extend to anything? If not, why not? If so, why so?

I mean, for instance, can I be a 12 year old African-American boy, please?

"Change into a nine year old Hindu boy, get rid of your wife." --- Tom Waits

Seriously, that's an interesting question. But there was that flap a while ago about that white woman who faked being black. She did not get the best of it.

[Dr Markus]

Whatever the answer is, it shouldn't be forced on people like in the link, no matter how much good they think they're doing. Should be voted on.

[naughty boy]

What's forced on people?

[Velvis]

Here's how I think it ought to be:

In public places, there should be

1) A ladies' room
2) A men's room
3) A single occupancy "any-gender" room

I don't think private businesses should be forced to have a third restroom, though.

[kath]

I'm interested in self-identification.

Honest question: if we are only what we think we are, then does this extend to anything? If not, why not? If so, why so?

I mean, for instance, can I be a 12 year old African-American boy, please?

"Change into a nine year old Hindu boy, get rid of your wife." --- Tom Waits

Seriously, that's an interesting question. But there was that flap a while ago about that white woman who faked being black. She did not get the best of it.

and i was gonna say if you wanna transform into a 12 year old african-american boy, don't do it at a certain time period in the south, or there will be hell to pay if you try to hit the general public toilet.

[Dr Markus]

What's forced on people?

In the link it was forced on all the students instead of being voted on. Some one just ripped the sign off to create gender free toilets, that's not right IMHO, should be voted on.

[Fonz]

Here's how I think it ought to be:

In public places, there should be

1) A ladies' room
2) A men's room
3) A single occupancy "any-gender" room

I don't think private businesses should be forced to have a third restroom, though.

I think this is reasonable.

[naughty boy]

What's forced on people?

In the link it was forced on all the students instead of being voted on. Some one just ripped the sign off to create gender free toilets, that's not right IMHO, should be voted on.

Ah, right. Yeah, the authorities just decided to go along with it, I think. It's an odd one.

[naughty boy]

These nine people who voted 'FUCK OFF' are keeping pretty quiet, aren't they?