gender-free bathrooms

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks

?!?!?!?!?

ABSOLUTELY fair! and let's see more of it!
12
46%
I really don't know
3
12%
FUCK OFF
11
42%
 
Total votes: 26

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quix
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby quix » 09 Apr 2016, 15:29

It seems really straightforward to me. Forget biology. If a person "thinks" and identifies themself as a woman, they're a woman. If a person "thinks" and identifies themself as a man, they're a man. I don't really care what physical bits and bobs they have or don't have or what the law says.

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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby Samoan » 09 Apr 2016, 15:31

It was certainly said by someone, (I'm paraphrasing) that "Margaret Thatcher gave the X chromosome a bad name"
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby kath » 09 Apr 2016, 15:34

quix wrote:It seems really straightforward to me. Forget biology. If a person "thinks" and identifies themself as a woman, they're a woman. If a person "thinks" and identifies themself as a man, they're a man. I don't really care what physical bits and bobs they have or don't have or what the law says.


i agree completely.

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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby Velvis » 09 Apr 2016, 16:02

kath wrote:
quix wrote:It seems really straightforward to me. Forget biology. If a person "thinks" and identifies themself as a woman, they're a woman. If a person "thinks" and identifies themself as a man, they're a man. I don't really care what physical bits and bobs they have or don't have or what the law says.


i agree completely.


I do too. I was slow to come to this position, but I have had certain friends in my life for the past five years or so who have educated me. After all, who am I to tell them their personal experience is wrong? What business is it of mine? And these are good people who treat others well. By every yardstick that is important to me, they are the people who should be considered "normal". They are not sick or perverted.

And it is vulgar and reductive to say of them, "I don't care who they fuck." A person's gender identity is a lot more than a rutting behavior.
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby LeBaron » 09 Apr 2016, 16:07

Who am I to tell a woman that her personal apprehension over new toilet rules is wrong? What business is it of mine?
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby Velvis » 09 Apr 2016, 16:30

Cobbler Bob wrote:Who am I to tell a woman that her personal apprehension over new toilet rules is wrong? What business is it of mine?


It's a legitimate issue. But as hatz said above, statistically speaking, there are probably more incidences of violence against trans women and trans men over bathroom use than against cis women by trans women in bathrooms.
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Betty Denim
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby Betty Denim » 09 Apr 2016, 16:34

Velvis wrote:
kath wrote:
quix wrote:It seems really straightforward to me. Forget biology. If a person "thinks" and identifies themself as a woman, they're a woman. If a person "thinks" and identifies themself as a man, they're a man. I don't really care what physical bits and bobs they have or don't have or what the law says.


i agree completely.


I do too. I was slow to come to this position, but I have had certain friends in my life for the past five years or so who have educated me. After all, who am I to tell them their personal experience is wrong? What business is it of mine? And these are good people who treat others well. By every yardstick that is important to me, they are the people who should be considered "normal". They are not sick or perverted.

And it is vulgar and reductive to say of them, "I don't care who they fuck." A person's gender identity is a lot more than a rutting behavior.


Huh? That was in response to an accusation that I think lesbians/gay men/bisexuals are aberrations.

I don't care about people's sexuality. Is sexuality not fucking now? Or about who you'd like to fuck?

I'd be inclined to 'reduce' my own sexuality to fucking. But I can be a bit vulgar, so feel free to use your own preferred term.

Gender is something different altogether. Nothing to do with fucking. And I haven't once given any indication that I think transgender people are sick or perverted. I mean some of them probably are. Just as some non-transgender people are. But by virtue of it? No. I simply haven't.
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Velvis
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby Velvis » 09 Apr 2016, 16:41

Gender identity, in addition to being sexual, is also presexual and postsexual. Children identify with a gender before they even know what sex is, and adults move into old age and still identify as a gender after they have stopped having sex.
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Betty Denim
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby Betty Denim » 09 Apr 2016, 16:42

Velvis wrote:
Cobbler Bob wrote:Who am I to tell a woman that her personal apprehension over new toilet rules is wrong? What business is it of mine?


It's a legitimate issue. But as hatz said above, statistically speaking, there are probably more incidences of violence against trans women and trans men over bathroom use than against cis women by trans women in bathrooms.


Red herring. I am not talking about violent trans women. I am talking about the potential for violence from men.

But, while we're at it, it's worthwhile noting that sexual and violent crime rates do not alter with transition, studies in both Europe and the USA confirm this. Studies also show transgender women commit sexual violence 6% more than men, according to a Californian study of inmates.
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby Belle Lettre » 09 Apr 2016, 16:43

Back to quix's observation: Unisex bathrooms make me think of Ally McBeal :)

I assume there would be urinals as well as cubicles? I don't really care to walk in on that. I don't have much of an opinion on the trans thing but am following the discussion with interest.
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Betty Denim
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby Betty Denim » 09 Apr 2016, 16:46

Velvis wrote:Gender identity, in addition to being sexual, is also presexual and postsexual. Children identify with a gender before they even know what sex is, and adults move into old age and still identify as a gender after they have stopped having sex.


How is this relevant to you claiming that I think anyone whose sexuality is not heterosexuality is an aberration?
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Velvis
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby Velvis » 09 Apr 2016, 16:46

Betty Denim wrote:
Velvis wrote:
Cobbler Bob wrote:Who am I to tell a woman that her personal apprehension over new toilet rules is wrong? What business is it of mine?


It's a legitimate issue. But as hatz said above, statistically speaking, there are probably more incidences of violence against trans women and trans men over bathroom use than against cis women by trans women in bathrooms.


Red herring. I am not talking about violent trans women. I am talking about the potential for violence from men.

But, while we're at it, it's worthwhile noting that sexual and violent crime rates do not alter with transition, studies in both Europe and the USA confirm this. Studies also show transgender women commit sexual violence 6% more than men, according to a Californian study of inmates.


Interesting.

But we should differentiate between gendered restrooms which admit trans people and gender-free bathrooms. I think they are different issues.
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Velvis
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby Velvis » 09 Apr 2016, 16:48

Betty Denim wrote:
Velvis wrote:Gender identity, in addition to being sexual, is also presexual and postsexual. Children identify with a gender before they even know what sex is, and adults move into old age and still identify as a gender after they have stopped having sex.


How is this relevant to you claiming that I think anyone whose sexuality is not heterosexuality is an aberration?


It's not. It's relevant to your earlier post where you said it IS about who we want to fuck.
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Betty Denim
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby Betty Denim » 09 Apr 2016, 16:49

I'm interested in self-identification.

Honest question: if we are only what we think we are, then does this extend to anything? If not, why not? If so, why so?

I mean, for instance, can I be a 12 year old African-American boy, please?
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Velvis
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby Velvis » 09 Apr 2016, 16:49

And I'm willing to accept that you're not homo-trans-phobic. Maybe my reading of your posts was faulty.
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Betty Denim
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby Betty Denim » 09 Apr 2016, 16:50

Velvis wrote:
Betty Denim wrote:
Velvis wrote:Gender identity, in addition to being sexual, is also presexual and postsexual. Children identify with a gender before they even know what sex is, and adults move into old age and still identify as a gender after they have stopped having sex.


How is this relevant to you claiming that I think anyone whose sexuality is not heterosexuality is an aberration?


It's not. It's relevant to your earlier post where you said it IS about who we want to fuck.


What is? Gender? I did not.
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Velvis
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby Velvis » 09 Apr 2016, 16:52

Betty Denim wrote:I'm interested in self-identification.

Honest question: if we are only what we think we are, then does this extend to anything? If not, why not? If so, why so?

I mean, for instance, can I be a 12 year old African-American boy, please?


"Change into a nine year old Hindu boy, get rid of your wife." --- Tom Waits

Seriously, that's an interesting question. But there was that flap a while ago about that white woman who faked being black. She did not get the best of it.
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Dr Markus
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby Dr Markus » 09 Apr 2016, 16:55

Whatever the answer is, it shouldn't be forced on people like in the link, no matter how much good they think they're doing. Should be voted on.
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby BOLLY BEE » 09 Apr 2016, 16:57

What's forced on people?
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Velvis
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby Velvis » 09 Apr 2016, 17:02

Here's how I think it ought to be:

In public places, there should be

1) A ladies' room
2) A men's room
3) A single occupancy "any-gender" room

I don't think private businesses should be forced to have a third restroom, though.
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