gender-free bathrooms

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks

?!?!?!?!?

ABSOLUTELY fair! and let's see more of it!
13
48%
I really don't know
3
11%
FUCK OFF
11
41%
 
Total votes: 27

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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby mission » 09 Apr 2016, 03:07

Velvis wrote:The disconnect we're having here is that in the States feminists are generally also LGBTQ allies. We tend to see it as us all being on the same side.


You might want to tell these people:

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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby mission » 09 Apr 2016, 03:13

K wrote:
APRIL 8, 2016
A Statement From Bruce Springsteen On North Carolina


As you, my fans, know I’m scheduled to play in Greensboro, North Carolina this Sunday. As we also know, North Carolina has just passed HB2, which the media are referring to as the “bathroom” law. HB2 — known officially as the Public Facilities Privacy and Security Act — dictates which bathrooms transgender people are permitted to use. Just as important, the law also attacks the rights of LGBT citizens to sue when their human rights are violated in the workplace. No other group of North Carolinians faces such a burden. To my mind, it’s an attempt by people who cannot stand the progress our country has made in recognizing the human rights of all of our citizens to overturn that progress. Right now, there are many groups, businesses, and individuals in North Carolina working to oppose and overcome these negative developments. Taking all of this into account, I feel that this is a time for me and the band to show solidarity for those freedom fighters. As a result, and with deepest apologies to our dedicated fans in Greensboro, we have canceled our show scheduled for Sunday, April 10th. Some things are more important than a rock show and this fight against prejudice and bigotry — which is happening as I write — is one of them. It is the strongest means I have for raising my voice in opposition to those who continue to push us backwards instead of forwards.



Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band’s Sunday April 10th show is canceled. Tickets will be refunded at point of purchase.


That's just talk and taking the day off work. Do something real that doesn't affect other folk and build a bunch of transtoilets, Bruce. Just reach into the centre console of one of your Cadillacs and pull out some spare change.

I am very tall and much of the architecture of the Western world is not fit for my purposes. I should get noisy about the burden this has imposed on me and get a few more superannuated rockstars to cancel their shows in support of the uncared-for tall.
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby LeBaron » 09 Apr 2016, 04:14

I'm not sure, but I think the law was about more than toilets. Or height, if you prefer.
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby Samoan » 09 Apr 2016, 09:13

Springsteen's concert cancellation is very unprofessional.
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby Deebank » 09 Apr 2016, 10:06

Cobbler Bob wrote:I'm not sure, but I think the law was about more than toilets. Or height, if you prefer.


That's how I read it.

The whole toilets thing is a Trojan horse containing a bunch of homo/transphobic stuff. Thin end of the wedge.

I think the fact that people from all over the world are discussing the issue here proves that Springsteen's stand has worked.
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby 'Face of Fruit Pastilles 1981' » 09 Apr 2016, 10:24

Springsteen's a fucking div. All this stuff is just his advisers talking.
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby quix » 09 Apr 2016, 12:16

I don't know why this discussion has become so polarised on transgender issues.

In the main this is about mixed gender toilets. Meaning MEN and WOMEN share toilets.

How safe do you think women will feel... will be... using toilets in clubs, pubs, later at night in shopping centres, parks, in train stations... Where also using the toilet are single men, drunk men, groups of men, drunk groups of men.

This is the main issue if mixed gender toilets became the norm.

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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby Velvis » 09 Apr 2016, 13:04

quix wrote:I don't know why this discussion has become so polarised on transgender issues.

In the main this is about mixed gender toilets. Meaning MEN and WOMEN share toilets.

How safe do you think women will feel... will be... using toilets in clubs, pubs, later at night in shopping centres, parks, in train stations... Where also using the toilet are single men, drunk men, groups of men, drunk groups of men.

This is the main issue if mixed gender toilets became the norm.


Also, if what my wife tells me is true, women are much filthier than men in public toilets. Peeing on the toilet seats, etc. Also, men are in and out of the bathroom fairly quickly. Women take longer and often have to wait in line. I don't want to wait in line.
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby Fonz » 09 Apr 2016, 13:07

Why hasn't anyone mentioned glory-holes yet?
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby quix » 09 Apr 2016, 13:14

Velvis wrote:
quix wrote:I don't know why this discussion has become so polarised on transgender issues.

In the main this is about mixed gender toilets. Meaning MEN and WOMEN share toilets.

How safe do you think women will feel... will be... using toilets in clubs, pubs, later at night in shopping centres, parks, in train stations... Where also using the toilet are single men, drunk men, groups of men, drunk groups of men.

This is the main issue if mixed gender toilets became the norm.


Also, if what my wife tells me is true, women are much filthier than men in public toilets. Peeing on the toilet seats, etc. Also, men are in and out of the bathroom fairly quickly. Women take longer and often have to wait in line. I don't want to wait in line.


Well in the mixed gender toilets I've been in the problems your wife encounters are still there as the actual cubicals are still designated male or female.

In fact I was in one in a trendy hotel in brighton a few weeks ago and a young girl of around 12 walked in and saw men in there and walked straight out! I opened the door and found her looking confused in the area outside and explained it was a mixed loo and she could use a toilet... She came back in and I showed her which toilets she could use and said I'd wait for her to finish. Poor girl!

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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby Belle Lettre » 09 Apr 2016, 13:20

I think you've put it in a nutshell, quixie.
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby Velvis » 09 Apr 2016, 13:20

The controversy here in the U.S. is not about mixed toilets. I don't think most people in the U.S. want them. The controversy, especially in the southern U.S., is about whether trans people can use the bathroom of their self-designated gender.

So perhaps I walked into this thread misunderstanding what this thread was all about, being hit in the news (and Facebook) with trans issues all the livelong day.
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby Diamond Dog » 09 Apr 2016, 13:21

mission wrote:
K wrote:
APRIL 8, 2016
A Statement From Bruce Springsteen On North Carolina


As you, my fans, know I’m scheduled to play in Greensboro, North Carolina this Sunday. As we also know, North Carolina has just passed HB2, which the media are referring to as the “bathroom” law. HB2 — known officially as the Public Facilities Privacy and Security Act — dictates which bathrooms transgender people are permitted to use. Just as important, the law also attacks the rights of LGBT citizens to sue when their human rights are violated in the workplace. No other group of North Carolinians faces such a burden. To my mind, it’s an attempt by people who cannot stand the progress our country has made in recognizing the human rights of all of our citizens to overturn that progress. Right now, there are many groups, businesses, and individuals in North Carolina working to oppose and overcome these negative developments. Taking all of this into account, I feel that this is a time for me and the band to show solidarity for those freedom fighters. As a result, and with deepest apologies to our dedicated fans in Greensboro, we have canceled our show scheduled for Sunday, April 10th. Some things are more important than a rock show and this fight against prejudice and bigotry — which is happening as I write — is one of them. It is the strongest means I have for raising my voice in opposition to those who continue to push us backwards instead of forwards.



Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band’s Sunday April 10th show is canceled. Tickets will be refunded at point of purchase.


That's just talk and taking the day off work. Do something real that doesn't affect other folk and build a bunch of transtoilets, Bruce. Just reach into the centre console of one of your Cadillacs and pull out some spare change.



You know he hasn't already done that then?

"Just talk" would be doing the gig and spouting about it onstage.

This is action. And the reaction globally has been phenomenal.
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby quix » 09 Apr 2016, 14:01

Velvis wrote:The controversy here in the U.S. is not about mixed toilets. I don't think most people in the U.S. want them. The controversy, especially in the southern U.S., is about whether trans people can use the bathroom of their self-designated gender.

So perhaps I walked into this thread misunderstanding what this thread was all about, being hit in the news (and Facebook) with trans issues all the livelong day.


I don't think you've misunderstood the issue. The issue is about men and women using toilets together... Or not.

Personally, I have no issue or problem with a transgender woman (a physical man) using a female toilet. Although I can see why some women would find it disconcerting.

I like the way things are. Men use men's toilets and women use women's toilets. Ergo a man identifying as a woman, is a woman, and can use a women's toilet.

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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby Samoan » 09 Apr 2016, 14:16

Velvis wrote:The controversy here in the U.S. is not about mixed toilets. I don't think most people in the U.S. want them. The controversy, especially in the southern U.S., is about whether trans people can use the bathroom of their self-designated gender.

It amounts to the same thing.

Velvis wrote:So perhaps I walked into this thread misunderstanding what this thread was all about, being hit in the news (and Facebook) with trans issues all the livelong day.

You're a smart guy. I feel you're doing damage limitation.
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby kath » 09 Apr 2016, 14:23

quix wrote:I don't know why this discussion has become so polarised on transgender issues.

In the main this is about mixed gender toilets. Meaning MEN and WOMEN share toilets.

How safe do you think women will feel... will be... using toilets in clubs, pubs, later at night in shopping centres, parks, in train stations... Where also using the toilet are single men, drunk men, groups of men, drunk groups of men.

This is the main issue if mixed gender toilets became the norm.


the problem for many americans is the political context.

think of it this way:

if a man walked up to you and said that he is concerned for yer safety in a unisex bathroom and that certain LGBT laws encourage that safety to be compromised, that might sound reasonable, right? if he said he was gonna come up with a law to counter that and prevent these safety issyews, might sound groovy.

but if that man is, say, david duke or jerry falwell or pick any person of that ilk who you have recognized all yer life to be most flagrantly agenda-ridden, especially anti-women... and if you've watched for decades that man manipulate to get his conservative agenda made legal... how do you react then? would you trust that man to draw up the gender boundaries? to be yer protector and policeman?

becuz the conservative lawmakers are *saying* they care about women's safety, they are trying to make people like springsteen or anyone who stands against them look the opposite, like they *don't* care about women's safety. it's a slick, sick thing.

so in that american context, yeah, it's complicated.

but none of that means that people with non-fungal brains don't care about a woman's safety in the bathroom.

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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby Velvis » 09 Apr 2016, 14:29

Samoan wrote:
Velvis wrote:The controversy here in the U.S. is not about mixed toilets. I don't think most people in the U.S. want them. The controversy, especially in the southern U.S., is about whether trans people can use the bathroom of their self-designated gender.

It amounts to the same thing.

Velvis wrote:So perhaps I walked into this thread misunderstanding what this thread was all about, being hit in the news (and Facebook) with trans issues all the livelong day.

You're a smart guy. I feel you're doing damage limitation.


I don't feel damaged, despite what Mission said above. I don't know him, nor his agenda. Nor do I know why my supposition that you or Betty fear that "men in drag" might pose as transgender is in error. I think there is a lot of self-back-patting going on as though some argument has been won when it hasn't been.

Just because I don't always respond to being baited doesn't mean I concede the point.
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby Velvis » 09 Apr 2016, 14:41

kath wrote:
quix wrote:I don't know why this discussion has become so polarised on transgender issues.

In the main this is about mixed gender toilets. Meaning MEN and WOMEN share toilets.

How safe do you think women will feel... will be... using toilets in clubs, pubs, later at night in shopping centres, parks, in train stations... Where also using the toilet are single men, drunk men, groups of men, drunk groups of men.

This is the main issue if mixed gender toilets became the norm.


the problem for many americans is the political context.

think of it this way:

if a man walked up to you and said that he is concerned for yer safety in a unisex bathroom and that certain LGBT laws encourage that safety to be compromised, that might sound reasonable, right? if he said he was gonna come up with a law to counter that and prevent these safety issyews, might sound groovy.

but if that man is, say, david duke or jerry falwell or pick any person of that ilk who you have recognized all yer life to be most flagrantly agenda-ridden, especially anti-women... and if you've watched for decades that man manipulate to get his conservative agenda made legal... how do you react then? would you trust that man to draw up the gender boundaries? to be yer protector and policeman?

becuz the conservative lawmakers are *saying* they care about women's safety, they are trying to make people like springsteen or anyone who stands against them look the opposite, like they *don't* care about women's safety. it's a slick, sick thing.

so in that american context, yeah, it's complicated.

but none of that means that people with non-fungal brains don't care about a woman's safety in the bathroom.


This.
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby Deebank » 09 Apr 2016, 15:01

I expect that trans people have been using the toilets of their chosen genders for decades with little or no comment.
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Re: gender-free bathrooms

Postby kath » 09 Apr 2016, 15:08

Velvis wrote:
Samoan wrote:
Velvis wrote:The controversy here in the U.S. is not about mixed toilets. I don't think most people in the U.S. want them. The controversy, especially in the southern U.S., is about whether trans people can use the bathroom of their self-designated gender.

It amounts to the same thing.

Velvis wrote:So perhaps I walked into this thread misunderstanding what this thread was all about, being hit in the news (and Facebook) with trans issues all the livelong day.

You're a smart guy. I feel you're doing damage limitation.


I don't feel damaged, despite what Mission said above. I don't know him, nor his agenda. Nor do I know why my supposition that that you or Betty fear that "men in drag" might pose as transgender is in error. I think there is a lot of self-back-patting going on as though some argument has been won when it hasn't been.

Just because I don't always respond to being baited doesn't mean I concede the point.


i *think* what is at the crux of this is how people are defining "transgender." i am sure i will be corrected if i am wrong on this, but from what i've been reading in this thread, some people believe that if you are born with male chromosomes and a penis, you will always be a man.

the whole chromosomal slant is pretty shaky, if you ask me.

if the sex chromosomes one is born with are the key determining factor in that person's behavior... well, i am seeing a lot on how men will always be men, meaning that no matter how they view themselves, no matter how they choose to live their lives, no matter any other internal or external influences, they will resort to their core "manness"... which seems to be equated to violating women. a genetic and biological predisposition that nothing ever trumps.

okay, so if the chromosomes on yer birth certificate make a person and how that person will behave, what do those core sex chromosomes for women mean?

it just seems like such an incredibly one-sided argument.

the implications here really bother me. they seem to say if that man had been born female, he'd be all clear in science lab. after all, you certainly can't reduce women by such biological arguments. that would be sexist. does it mean that female chromosomes are inherently groovy and superior? even if they aren't, does it mean that women can rise above mere biology, they are more than their genetic programming or biological impulses, whereas men can't and aren't?

how is reducing men in this way any different than reducing women?