Do you care about BCB?

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks

How much?

A great deal - it's a massive part of my life
9
13%
A lot - I have some great friends on here
14
21%
Yes, but with reservations
22
33%
I like it, but I'm very close to leaving if there are any more bustups
2
3%
I'm not that fussed - I stay out of a strange sense of loyalty because I'm a part of the furniture
11
16%
I'm on the verge of leaving
3
4%
I'm going to report you all to the internet police tomorrow
1
1%
I HATE everyone here
5
7%
 
Total votes: 67

User avatar
The Modernist
2018 BCB Cup Champ!
Posts: 12849
Joined: 13 Apr 2014, 20:42

Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby The Modernist » 24 Jan 2018, 09:12

Jeemo wrote:
Toby wrote:What needs to be avoided though is generational dependency on the state where it becomes normalized.


and which party was responsible for creating this situation?

As Thatcher said the high unemployment figures were a price worth paying for low inflation and good for business.



Exactly.

User avatar
Toby
Arsehole all Erect
Posts: 23569
Joined: 28 Jul 2003, 23:13
Contact:

Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Toby » 24 Jan 2018, 09:24

Diamond Dog wrote:
Toby wrote:Conservative thought and Tory voter are not the same thing.


So it's do as I say, not do as I do?

I would have thought that to be a very un-Conservative belief system.


No, I don't think you get what I'm saying.

Conservative thought and philosophy aren't necessarily aligned perfectly with the average Tory voter, just as Left wing philosophy and the average Labour voter aren't the same thing. They are guided on relatively similar principles, but they are not the same.

The average Tory voter will claim benefit if it's due to them. If the State provides, then citizens will take, as simple as that.

User avatar
Toby
Arsehole all Erect
Posts: 23569
Joined: 28 Jul 2003, 23:13
Contact:

Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Toby » 24 Jan 2018, 09:26

Jeemo wrote:
Toby wrote:What needs to be avoided though is generational dependency on the state where it becomes normalized.


and which party was responsible for creating this situation?

As Thatcher said the high unemployment figures were a price worth paying for low inflation and good for business.


Well, I don't think the argument is quite as clear cut as you make it, but yes, I'd agree in general that Thatcher was responsible. But I'm sure lots of Labour party voters have nothing to do with Tony Blair as well after his fiasco in the Middle East. Just because I'm conservative doesn't mean that I agree with the Tory party manifesto or the actions of previous Prime Ministers.

Both of them were radicals.

User avatar
The Modernist
2018 BCB Cup Champ!
Posts: 12849
Joined: 13 Apr 2014, 20:42

Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby The Modernist » 24 Jan 2018, 09:41

When did you start voting Conservative as a matter of interest?

User avatar
Jeemo
Posts: 20813
Joined: 21 Jul 2003, 23:17
Location: ????

Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Jeemo » 24 Jan 2018, 09:43

Toby wrote:
Jeemo wrote:
Toby wrote:What needs to be avoided though is generational dependency on the state where it becomes normalized.


and which party was responsible for creating this situation?

As Thatcher said the high unemployment figures were a price worth paying for low inflation and good for business.


Well, I don't think the argument is quite as clear cut as you make it, but yes, I'd agree in general that Thatcher was responsible. But I'm sure lots of Labour party voters have nothing to do with Tony Blair as well after his fiasco in the Middle East. Just because I'm conservative doesn't mean that I agree with the Tory party manifesto or the actions of previous Prime Ministers.

Both of them were radicals.


whataboutery in its clearest form.
Image So Long Kid, Take A Bow.

User avatar
Toby
Arsehole all Erect
Posts: 23569
Joined: 28 Jul 2003, 23:13
Contact:

Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Toby » 24 Jan 2018, 09:51

Well I've only voted in 2015 and 2017, but probably around 2013/14 I started to feel that left-wing politics and left-wing thought were not for me.

The guy that really influenced me is Giambattista Vico - an Italian philosopher whose thought preceded Edmund Burke.

User avatar
Toby
Arsehole all Erect
Posts: 23569
Joined: 28 Jul 2003, 23:13
Contact:

Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Toby » 24 Jan 2018, 09:59

Jeemo wrote:whataboutery in its clearest form.


How ridiculous. Just because you support one party or political philosophy more than another doesn't mean that you automatically adhere and support all of it and previous actions taken by its politicians.

There is plenty of left-wing philosophy and some political perspectives that I admire and some I agree with. We live in a country where inherently left-wing institutions such as the NHS and the welfare state are deeply embedded in our way of life. To remove them entirely is a utopian vision worthy of the most mangled left-wing types. They need to be reformed, not swept away.

My central principles however are conservative.

User avatar
The Modernist
2018 BCB Cup Champ!
Posts: 12849
Joined: 13 Apr 2014, 20:42

Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby The Modernist » 24 Jan 2018, 10:04

This is going to sound a bit ignorant of me so I'll try to be careful how I phrase it. But you seem to put a great deal of intellectual worth in historical thinkers or philosophers, but I wonder how much relevance they can have in the 21st century. I have had this 'problem', if I can put it like that, with some of your arguments recently. Can ideas from the 18th century really be so easily transferred to our current situation in the here and now? History is important in telling us how we got to a certain point, but I don't think it can always point the way forward as well.

User avatar
Jeemo
Posts: 20813
Joined: 21 Jul 2003, 23:17
Location: ????

Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Jeemo » 24 Jan 2018, 10:06

Toby wrote:
Jeemo wrote:whataboutery in its clearest form.


How ridiculous. Just because you support one party or political philosophy more than another doesn't mean that you automatically adhere and support all of it and previous actions taken by its politicians.

There is plenty of left-wing philosophy and some political perspectives that I admire and some I agree with. We live in a country where inherently left-wing institutions such as the NHS and the welfare state are deeply embedded in our way of life. To remove them entirely is a utopian vision worthy of the most mangled left-wing types. They need to be reformed, not swept away.

My central principles however are conservative.



Ridiculous, really. I make a valid point about Thatcher and you then bring up Blair.

left wing types want to get rid of the welfare state and the NHS?
Image So Long Kid, Take A Bow.

User avatar
Toby
Arsehole all Erect
Posts: 23569
Joined: 28 Jul 2003, 23:13
Contact:

Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Toby » 24 Jan 2018, 10:13

You did make a valid point about Thatcher. I agreed with you as a way of saying that not all people who are conservative agree with previous actions taken by politicians of the same hue. Just as I'm sure lots of Labour voters didn't agree with Tony Blair's decision about Iraq and would not want to be lumped in with that. Both of these politicians were radicals.

It is to make the point that everyday political perspectives are not monolithic in being aligned with the current incarnation of the party.

And my point about the NHS and the Welfare state is that conservatives who want to get rid of them share the same utopian vision as left-wingers who want to abolish things like the Monarchy or whatever. In many ways both political perspectives have utopian notions, but I think on the whole conservatives are more firmly rooted in tradition.

User avatar
Toby
Arsehole all Erect
Posts: 23569
Joined: 28 Jul 2003, 23:13
Contact:

Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Toby » 24 Jan 2018, 10:23

The Modernist wrote:This is going to sound a bit ignorant of me so I'll try to be careful how I phrase it. But you seem to put a great deal of intellectual worth in historical thinkers or philosophers, but I wonder how much relevance they can have in the 21st century. I have had this 'problem', if I can put it like that, with some of your arguments recently. Can ideas from the 18th century really be so easily transferred to our current situation in the here and now? History is important in telling us how we got to a certain point, but I don't think it can always point the way forward as well.


You can go back 2500 years really. Our lives are built on tradition and the thoughts and actions of those who went before us. There is no doubt that in the 21st century, particularly with the advent of ultra-fast communication and worldviews that are increasingly becoming bigger and bigger, things are changing perhaps at a pace which is damaging. But we can only surely work with what we have, rather than trying to make something completely new.

One of the fundamental aspects of studying Antiquity is the realisation, for me at least, that people are, on the whole, the same as they were back then. There is a sharp distinction in worldview between a pre-industrial society and a modern one, but people's everyday actions, desires and mores are pretty much the same. There is an argument amongst some scholars that "globalisation" has conveniently replaced slavery from the perspective of how we view the movement and production of goods and services compared to the height of the Roman empire.

User avatar
Diamond Dog
"Self Quoter" Extraordinaire.
Posts: 67329
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:04
Location: High On Poachers Hill

Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Diamond Dog » 24 Jan 2018, 11:04

Toby wrote: But we can only surely work with what we have, rather than trying to make something completely new.


I'm generally with you until you make this kind of grandiloquent statement, which - once picked apart- is vapid nonsense.

Unless, of course, you actually are saying we should never invent something that completely transforms how we previously looked at solving a problem?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”
"Don't be seduced into thinking that which did not make a profit is without value"
"'Seize the moments as they fly, know to live and learn to die'."

User avatar
Toby
Arsehole all Erect
Posts: 23569
Joined: 28 Jul 2003, 23:13
Contact:

Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Toby » 24 Jan 2018, 11:14

Diamond Dog wrote:
Toby wrote: But we can only surely work with what we have, rather than trying to make something completely new.


I'm generally with you until you make this kind of grandiloquent statement, which - once picked apart- are vapid nonsense.

Unless, of course, you actually are saying we should never invent something that completely transforms how we previously looked at solving a problem?


Well we have Common Law already don't we, which produces law of out of everyday situations where there is no antecedent.

User avatar
Diamond Dog
"Self Quoter" Extraordinaire.
Posts: 67329
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:04
Location: High On Poachers Hill

Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Diamond Dog » 24 Jan 2018, 11:22

That's a good answer, to a completely different question.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”
"Don't be seduced into thinking that which did not make a profit is without value"
"'Seize the moments as they fly, know to live and learn to die'."

User avatar
Toby
Arsehole all Erect
Posts: 23569
Joined: 28 Jul 2003, 23:13
Contact:

Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Toby » 24 Jan 2018, 11:31

Diamond Dog wrote:Unless, of course, you actually are saying we should never invent something that completely transforms how we previously looked at solving a problem?


I haven't said that. I'm just struggling to see how you could invent something completely new with regard to a social issue or problem that doesn't have its basis in something we already know.

Say for example, that aliens landed on earth tomorrow. It would be a completely new thing for us to experience. But immediately from the outset we have couched them in a linguistic antecedent we know already, alien. An outsider. Right from the outset there is something in our approach to this that exists. There would be thorny issues to resolve and new ones too, but our approach to them is utterly based on what we know already and we then work towards an outcome that might very well be new.

User avatar
Diamond Dog
"Self Quoter" Extraordinaire.
Posts: 67329
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:04
Location: High On Poachers Hill

Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Diamond Dog » 24 Jan 2018, 13:10

..................
Last edited by Diamond Dog on 24 Jan 2018, 13:21, edited 1 time in total.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”
"Don't be seduced into thinking that which did not make a profit is without value"
"'Seize the moments as they fly, know to live and learn to die'."

User avatar
Diamond Dog
"Self Quoter" Extraordinaire.
Posts: 67329
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:04
Location: High On Poachers Hill

Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Diamond Dog » 24 Jan 2018, 13:21

Maybe the fact we don't look to do things completely different is half the problem.

What's that definition of madness again? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”
"Don't be seduced into thinking that which did not make a profit is without value"
"'Seize the moments as they fly, know to live and learn to die'."

User avatar
Toby
Arsehole all Erect
Posts: 23569
Joined: 28 Jul 2003, 23:13
Contact:

Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Toby » 24 Jan 2018, 13:21

Diamond Dog wrote:Maybe the fact we don't look to do things completely different is half the problem.


In a situation where there is absolutely no risk, then yes I agree. But the problem with social and civic issues is that for every change or reform you attempt, someone somewhere is affected and most often, in an unexpected manner.

For example, Thatcher didn't realise that by selling off council housing, something that enabled the working class to have property, she would create a crisis thirty years later. By creating mass unemployment in areas previously reliant on industry, there wasn't the realisation that it would create generational dependency on the welfare state. By removing the strict restrictions on gambling, Labour didn't forsee the unmitigated rise of betting shops in the high street.

User avatar
Diamond Dog
"Self Quoter" Extraordinaire.
Posts: 67329
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:04
Location: High On Poachers Hill

Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Diamond Dog » 24 Jan 2018, 13:23

Oddly enough I think you're absolutely wrong. They totally knew the likely outcome (christ alive, they had enough people telling them the likely outcomes) but basically thought the(ir) gain outweighed the risk (which wasn't likely to happen on their watch anyway).
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”
"Don't be seduced into thinking that which did not make a profit is without value"
"'Seize the moments as they fly, know to live and learn to die'."

User avatar
Toby
Arsehole all Erect
Posts: 23569
Joined: 28 Jul 2003, 23:13
Contact:

Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Toby » 24 Jan 2018, 13:27

Perhaps, I don't know. The reality though is that most of the things we do have some sort of negative impact somewhere along the line, just as they do have a positive one.

The creation of the NHS is on the whole, a positive thing. But I suspect that no-one who saw it being born would have forseen it becoming the, what, 4th or 5th largest employer in the world, a political football of immense proportions and having to treat people for conditions that didn't even exist in 1945.