Do you care about BCB?

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks

How much?

A great deal - it's a massive part of my life
9
13%
A lot - I have some great friends on here
14
21%
Yes, but with reservations
22
33%
I like it, but I'm very close to leaving if there are any more bustups
2
3%
I'm not that fussed - I stay out of a strange sense of loyalty because I'm a part of the furniture
11
16%
I'm on the verge of leaving
3
4%
I'm going to report you all to the internet police tomorrow
1
1%
I HATE everyone here
5
7%
 
Total votes: 67

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Goat Boy
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Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Goat Boy » 23 Jan 2018, 11:31

You're sounding like Yoda here!

Is Conservatism more powerful master G?
No! Easier. More seductive!

I'm playing devils advocate a bit here.
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


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Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby The Modernist » 23 Jan 2018, 11:32

Toby wrote:
Well it is the domain of the Conservatives because the left believe in "Cradle to Grave" policies where the State becomes the family.


A gross and distorted simplification of course. But I do really need to go!

Paging DD, Griff and Copehead to take over.

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Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Toby » 23 Jan 2018, 11:32

I don't think anyone in their right mind would suggest that the current existing economic order is perfect.

But it "works" in a way that benefits at least a large number of people, certainly as is evinced by the growing middle-class of countries like Brazil, India and the like. Look at the way in which a number of African countries are experiencing around 7 to 8% growth at the moment, outpacing European countries.

The fact is that the socialist experiments of the 20th century and their corresponding economic systems have not yielded much in the way of a real alternative. If such a system could be shown to be a viable alternative, then people would champion it I'm sure.

The reality is that true financial equality could only ever be achieved if everyone was poor.

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Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Deebank » 23 Jan 2018, 11:36

Goat Boy wrote:Part of the natural appeal of conservatism is the mitigating of risk. If you have a family and you’re doing alright then naturally you might not be so keen on the kind of changes the left sees as desirable because this introduces risk, the unknown. It's natural to do what is "best" for your family. There are various examples around the world as well where the left have gained power and where it’s gone horrible wrong and as a consequence damn near everybody has suffered, including the poor of course who always suffer first and most. Some people naturally favour a more pragmatic approach to society whereby changes are small and incremental and thereby reduce risk. Reform.

Now if you’re at the other end of the economic scale (or you’re so well off that any risk is negligible anyway) and your family is struggling then of course you might be more prepared to support left wing policies believing that there is the possibility this will improve your family’s life and the potential prosperity of your grandchildren etc. It can’t get no worse, can it? You see this with Trump and Brexit of course. Working class people throwing the dice and voting for “change” and introducing the unknown and risk in the belief that it “can’t get no worse”.


I think you're living in the past - that John Major cobblers about warm beer, vicars cycling home after evensong and cricket on the village green is just a phantom. Since the mid seventies when the conservative party jettisoned its 'government by the seat of the pants' pragmatism in favour of its current hard=nosed neoliberal free market dogma - under Thatcher and her guru Keith Joseph - much of the cuddly 'small c' stuff and the 'careful, conservative incremental change has gone.

We have been living through a right wing, monetarist experiment and it has demonstrably failed again and again - How's that for mitigating risk?

And I think the things the left has achieved were born out of a desire for something better for all rather than selfish cynicism, a shrug and an 'It can't get no worse, let's give it a try' attitude. On the whole the NHS, the welfare state and the other things that were ushered in post WWII have delivered for most people - providing that all import security, a safety net if you will. A real viable alternative!
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Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Insouciant Western People » 23 Jan 2018, 11:39

The Modernist wrote:And some people believe that the best way of doing that is by having building a cohesive and socially responsible society.


Indeed, and not just people on the left. That belief is a hallmark of the work of conservative writers and thinkers like Roger Scruton and Theodore Dalrymple. They just take a different view of how to achieve those things.
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Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Insouciant Western People » 23 Jan 2018, 11:44

The Modernist wrote:BCB has definitely got a bit more right wing. It's the first thing I noticed when I came back, and it was noticeable.


That may well be the case, and there's been some interesting debate on the subject since you posted this. I'd agree that I've moved away from the left, although I don't think I'm 'of the right', for want of a better expression.

I was just taking exception to Pete's comparison to Wannsee. However flippantly it was meant, it was uncalled for.
Jeff K wrote:Nick's still the man! No one has been as consistent as he has been over such a long period of time.

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Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Diamond Dog » 23 Jan 2018, 11:44

Toby wrote:
The Modernist wrote:
Toby wrote:
Well, we all experience family from the moment we're born. So it's what we know. Obviously what constitutes "family" and the experience is unique to everyone. We all have different experiences of what it means. But creating a family is the bedrock of society. In general (and yes, obviously there are always exceptions) you will find that people are happier when they are in, or have created a family unit of some sort.

My own experience is that since I've had a family, I'm a lot more settled, clear in what I want and happier in life.


Yes I get all that. What I don't get is why the family should somehow be the domain of Conservatives. You're acting as if they somehow invented it!


Well it is the domain of the Conservatives because the left believe in "Cradle to Grave" policies where the State becomes the family.


What?! The Left do not believe in the family unit and believe in substituting the State for it? Really?!
Last edited by Diamond Dog on 23 Jan 2018, 11:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Diamond Dog » 23 Jan 2018, 11:47

Nick wrote:I was just taking exception to Pete's comparison to Wannsee. However flippantly it was meant, it was uncalled for.


:lol:

I retract the actual word "Wannsee" but stand by the intent.
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Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Toby » 23 Jan 2018, 11:50

I admit that was a bit "baity" for sure. But "cradle to grave" is an essential aspect of the left's thinking.

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Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Toby » 23 Jan 2018, 11:52

Nick wrote:
The Modernist wrote:BCB has definitely got a bit more right wing. It's the first thing I noticed when I came back, and it was noticeable.


That may well be the case, and there's been some interesting debate on the subject since you posted this. I'd agree that I've moved away from the left, although I don't think I'm 'of the right', for want of a better expression.

I was just taking exception to Pete's comparison to Wannsee. However flippantly it was meant, it was uncalled for.


Let's just say that we now have a bit of engagement and different thinking. I don't see any classic hallmarks of far-right thinking like blatant xenophobia, crass racism or sexism, bigotry or aggression in any posts.

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Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Toby » 23 Jan 2018, 11:53

Nick wrote:
That may well be the case, and there's been some interesting debate on the subject since you posted this. I'd agree that I've moved away from the left, although I don't think I'm 'of the right',


CENTRIST DAD ALERT

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Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Goat Boy » 23 Jan 2018, 12:27

Hang the fucker up by his balls!
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


Copehead wrote:we have lost touch with anything normal

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Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Insouciant Western People » 23 Jan 2018, 14:07

Goat Boy wrote:Hang the fucker up by his balls!


You know what floats my neoliberal Bliarite boat.
Jeff K wrote:Nick's still the man! No one has been as consistent as he has been over such a long period of time.

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Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Rayge » 23 Jan 2018, 14:17

OCT wrote:Oh, it's absolutely guaranteed that someone will counter any old line about growing old with 'well it hasn't happened to ME!'. But it happens to many, because life and death and marriage and children and all that.

And it doesn't happen to many others, including many who have done life death and marriage and children, as have I, after a fashion.
All of my friends in my age cohort are still firmly on the left economically and socially, and have been for the last 50 years or so, despite the varying circumstances of their lives.
My only point is you cannot (fully) 'explain' individual actions by reference to the herd - but I'm not remotely interested in squabbling about it. :)

Back when this thread began, I voted for the first option, btw, but didn't see the point in writing why.
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Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Eddie Shah environment » 23 Jan 2018, 14:27

Aye
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Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Butch Manly » 23 Jan 2018, 23:03

Toby wrote:
Well it is the domain of the Conservatives because the left believe in "Cradle to Grave" policies where the State becomes the family.


Wow, how paranoid do you sound?
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Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Toby » 24 Jan 2018, 07:35

How am I paranoid?

I'm merely stating facts. Conservative thought doesn't believe in state intervention to the degree that the left does. Whether I agree with that is an entirely different matter. In situations where fathers, for whatever reason, are invisible, then the state plays a role in the family upbringing because it is a source of income.

Personally I think that the creation of the welfare state has produced a situation where state intervention is essentially part of the fabric of modern society. We cannot go back beyond that now. What needs to be avoided though is generational dependency on the state where it becomes normalized.

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Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Diamond Dog » 24 Jan 2018, 08:05

Toby wrote:I'm merely stating facts. Conservative thought doesn't believe in state intervention to the degree that the left does. Whether I agree with that is an entirely different matter. In situations where fathers, for whatever reason, are invisible, then the state plays a role in the family upbringing because it is a source of income.


No Tory voter ever drew Family Income Support?
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Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Toby » 24 Jan 2018, 08:11

Conservative thought and Tory voter are not the same thing.

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Re: Do you care about BCB?

Postby Diamond Dog » 24 Jan 2018, 08:23

Toby wrote:Conservative thought and Tory voter are not the same thing.


So it's do as I say, not do as I do?

I would have thought that to be a very un-Conservative belief system.
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