So, GOD then

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks

nail yr colours to the mast. heathen scum

Atheist
24
44%
Non-Theist
4
7%
Agnostic
7
13%
Monotheist (male deity)
6
11%
Monotheist (female deity)
1
2%
Polytheist
2
4%
Pantheist
7
13%
Autotheist
3
6%
 
Total votes: 54

User avatar
Rayge
Posts: 10866
Joined: 14 Aug 2013, 11:37
Location: deepest Devon
Contact:

Re: So, GOD then

Postby Rayge » 19 Feb 2015, 15:22

mission wrote:
Rayge wrote:So, who were the other two autotheists, then?
Never did find out.
Pretty sure it wasn't an alias


We all worship ourselves, cobber. Nothing particularly special there.

Even self-despisers hold their own despising in high regard.


Nothing to do with worship, old bean :) .
More a recognition that each of us lives in a self-created world and many of us prefer to acknowledge that by exteriorizing the function. As a necessary corollary, everyone else is also god, so no need for bent knees.

I'm fundamentally interested in gods and daemons and other 'supernatural' critters because I consider them all to be manifestations of the structure of our minds and being around common themes and experiences. For instance, the thread I began recently in which I asked if people had experienced a particular state of mind involving clarity, dissociation and lengthening of time at points where they have been suddenly place in some kind of existential crisis, which I experienced when I was present at the deaths of my grandmother and father, before I'd been anywhere near any drugs, and recognized occurring several times when taking psychedelics. It occurred to me that this mental state, one which unlocks you from the habitual way you censor the world and perceives the passage of time, would be a useful survival aid, so I can imagine that if ever it occurred naturally, evolution would have locked it in to many animals. But when self-awareness is applied to this perhaps natural state of mind - call it an 'instinct for survival' - it can only see it as 'other' and from outside, as it is so different – while undeniably protective.
In many ways, it's contiguous to the LSD experience (as most drugs work by locking on to receptors in the nervous system that are presumably there to receive chemical messages generated by the body itself; maybe acid triggers these receptors in unexpected ways - or maybe the body sees it as an existential crisis :) ), and I've come to identify it with the Holy Guardian Angel that is not only part of the mythos of several religions, but was also the goal (or more precisely, attaining the knowledge and conversation of the HGA) of the Sacred Rite of Abra-Melin the Mage, which Crowley carried out at Boleskine (one of the main reasons Jimmy Page bought the place) and which is pretty much calculated, over the course of several months, to precipitate existential crises.
You can't play a tune on an absolute

When the ball sleeps it dreams it is a Frisbee

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. Love is the law, love under will

User avatar
Deebank
Resonator
Posts: 22400
Joined: 10 Oct 2003, 13:47
Location: In a beautiful place out in the country

Re: So, GOD then

Postby Deebank » 19 Feb 2015, 15:50

Rayge wrote:
mission wrote:
Rayge wrote:So, who were the other two autotheists, then?
Never did find out.
Pretty sure it wasn't an alias


We all worship ourselves, cobber. Nothing particularly special there.

Even self-despisers hold their own despising in high regard.


Nothing to do with worship, old bean :) .
More a recognition that each of us lives in a self-created world and many of us prefer to acknowledge that by exteriorizing the function. As a necessary corollary, everyone else is also god, so no need for bent knees.

I'm fundamentally interested in gods and daemons and other 'supernatural' critters because I consider them all to be manifestations of the structure of our minds and being around common themes and experiences. For instance, the thread I began recently in which I asked if people had experienced a particular state of mind involving clarity, dissociation and lengthening of time at points where they have been suddenly place in some kind of existential crisis, which I experienced when I was present at the deaths of my grandmother and father, before I'd been anywhere near any drugs, and recognized occurring several times when taking psychedelics. It occurred to me that this mental state, one which unlocks you from the habitual way you censor the world and perceives the passage of time, would be a useful survival aid, so I can imagine that if ever it occurred naturally, evolution would have locked it in to many animals. But when self-awareness is applied to this perhaps natural state of mind - call it an 'instinct for survival' - it can only see it as 'other' and from outside, as it is so different – while undeniably protective.
In many ways, it's contiguous to the LSD experience (as most drugs work by locking on to receptors in the nervous system that are presumably there to receive chemical messages generated by the body itself; maybe acid triggers these receptors in unexpected ways - or maybe the body sees it as an existential crisis :) ), and I've come to identify it with the Holy Guardian Angel that is not only part of the mythos of several religions, but was also the goal (or more precisely, attaining the knowledge and conversation of the HGA) of the Sacred Rite of Abra-Melin the Mage, which Crowley carried out at Boleskine (one of the main reasons Jimmy Page bought the place) and which is pretty much calculated, over the course of several months, to precipitate existential crises.


No stranger to Crowleyan thought, Robert Anton Wilson had an admirably agnostic attitude to his experiences (in Cosmic Trigger). He didn't know (or perhaps more importantly care) whether they were due to contact with supernatural entities - gods, angels etc, psychic extraterrestrials from Sirius or his own subconscious mind. I reckon he had a pretty good idea that it was the latter (hammered by large doses of mescaline), but he didn't let that get in the way of his entertaining and far out ruminations.

Echoing Rayge's solipsism - if that's the right word, it always sounds a bit adolescent somehow - RAW talked about 'reality tunnels' and the reduction valve of the senses... or something like that.

I was going to post on the other thread, but never got around to it. Is what you're describing 'transcendence''? A fascinating brain state I think.
Paid anghofio fod dy galon yn y chwyldro

User avatar
Qube
Posts: 2559
Joined: 04 Dec 2007, 12:16
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: So, GOD then

Postby Qube » 19 Feb 2015, 15:53

mission wrote:We all worship ourselves, cobber. Nothing particularly special there.

Even self-despisers hold their own despising in high regard.


That's true, I'm fucking great at hating myself.

User avatar
mission
Posts: 2024
Joined: 04 Apr 2008, 13:39

Re: So, GOD then

Postby mission » 20 Feb 2015, 08:24

I wish you wouldn't. You're a very intelligent, handsome, tall and engaging fellow with good, wide ranging taste.

Chin up, shoulders back, head - in your case - perpendicular. Now go fuck the world.
Good.

User avatar
mission
Posts: 2024
Joined: 04 Apr 2008, 13:39

Re: So, GOD then

Postby mission » 20 Feb 2015, 10:32

Rayge wrote: ... and I've come to identify it with the Holy Guardian Angel that is not only part of the mythos of several religions...


I like that. A lot.

There's these big bones, see, and our forebears gazed upon them and called the beasts they belonged to dragons. We call them dinosaurs.

The bones exist no matter what apparatus you use to make sense of them. And the beasts wouldn't at all given weight to what words we used to describe them.

You should interested to know that the Nixon-era embargo on legitimate psychedelic research in the US has finally ended and the stuff being accomplished with mystical experience brought on by mushrooms is nothing short of amazing.

I am firmly of the belief that profound spiritual experience should be made available to all. But I also suspect the chemically derived experience remains precisely that - and that the emptiness behind a contrived experience cannot be denied.

The contemporary research is revealing lifealteringly positive effects from one controlled mushroom
Experience to be in place six to eight months after the experience.

Wonderful things being accomplished with cancer patients meeting and overcoming their fears and sadness.
Good.

User avatar
The Modernist
Posts: 8704
Joined: 13 Apr 2014, 20:42

Re: So, GOD then

Postby The Modernist » 20 Feb 2015, 10:41

mission wrote:
Rayge wrote: ... and I've come to identify it with the Holy Guardian Angel that is not only part of the mythos of several religions...


I like that. A lot.

There's these big bones, see, and our forebears gazed upon them and called the beasts they belonged to dragons. We call them dinosaurs.

The bones exist no matter what apparatus you use to make sense of them. And the beasts wouldn't at all given weight to what words we used to describe them.

You should interested to know that the Nixon-era embargo on legitimate psychedelic research in the US has finally ended and the stuff being accomplished with mystical experience brought on by mushrooms is nothing short of amazing.

I am firmly of the belief that profound spiritual experience should be made available to all. But I also suspect the chemically derived experience remains precisely that - and that the emptiness behind a contrived experience cannot be denied.

The contemporary research is revealing lifealteringly positive effects from one controlled mushroom
Experience to be in place six to eight months after the experience.

Wonderful things being accomplished with cancer patients meeting and overcoming their fears and sadness.


Yesterday I found myself ruminating on the concept of peak experiences which Maslow claimed was key to happiness. One of the keys to this is letting go or in Freudian terms getting rid of the superego. Certainly psychedelic drugs can achieve this, as can various religious experiences (which we could call transcendence). For an agnostic non-psychedelic drug-taking bloke like myself though, they can be hard to come by.

User avatar
Deebank
Resonator
Posts: 22400
Joined: 10 Oct 2003, 13:47
Location: In a beautiful place out in the country

Re: So, GOD then

Postby Deebank » 20 Feb 2015, 11:11

People have always altered their brain states as part of religious ritual.

I've said it before on here, but precisely this kind of 'profound religious experiences' can be achieved under lab conditions using direct stimulus of various lobes of the brain. A similar thing can happen to some type 1 diabetics under extreme hypoglycaemia.

I suppose to the believer it does't matter what the physical cause is.
Paid anghofio fod dy galon yn y chwyldro

User avatar
The Modernist
Posts: 8704
Joined: 13 Apr 2014, 20:42

Re: So, GOD then

Postby The Modernist » 20 Feb 2015, 11:21

But although a lab could induce the effect, the context would rob it of all meaning.

User avatar
Deebank
Resonator
Posts: 22400
Joined: 10 Oct 2003, 13:47
Location: In a beautiful place out in the country

Re: So, GOD then

Postby Deebank » 20 Feb 2015, 13:07

BCB Cup Winner 2011 wrote:But although a lab could induce the effect, the context would rob it of all meaning.


I don't know whether it's context or the predisposition of the 'subject' that is more important.

Having experienced what I subsequently discovered was probably a temporal lobe/sleep paralysis episode in my teens I can say that while I was sure what I experienced was not a dream I was also equally convinced that it was something that had a natural as opposed to supernatural cause. Had I been religious rather than an instinctive atheist my attitude may have been very different.

It came as a relief when years later I read an article explaining these sorts of episodes though.
Paid anghofio fod dy galon yn y chwyldro

User avatar
Deebank
Resonator
Posts: 22400
Joined: 10 Oct 2003, 13:47
Location: In a beautiful place out in the country

Re: So, GOD then

Postby Deebank » 20 Feb 2015, 13:10

BCB Cup Winner 2011 wrote:But although a lab could induce the effect, the context would rob it of all meaning.


I suppose there is an argument that doing this in the lab robs all similar religious experiences - lab-based or not - of their meaning.
It's like Toto revealing the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain.
Paid anghofio fod dy galon yn y chwyldro

User avatar
Rayge
Posts: 10866
Joined: 14 Aug 2013, 11:37
Location: deepest Devon
Contact:

Re: So, GOD then

Postby Rayge » 26 Sep 2017, 12:15

Bump for the heaven and hell of it
You can't play a tune on an absolute

When the ball sleeps it dreams it is a Frisbee

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. Love is the law, love under will

User avatar
The Great Defector
Posts: 15716
Joined: 07 Jan 2012, 18:16

Re: So, GOD then

Postby The Great Defector » 26 Sep 2017, 13:03

God backwards.............is DOG.


Mind.......blown!

Image
Loki wrote:You Brit boys are so contentious!

User avatar
Goat Boy
Bogarting the joint
Posts: 29754
Joined: 20 Mar 2007, 12:11
Location: In the perfumed garden

Re: So, GOD then

Postby Goat Boy » 26 Sep 2017, 13:21

Deebank wrote:
BCB Cup Winner 2011 wrote:But although a lab could induce the effect, the context would rob it of all meaning.


I don't know whether it's context or the predisposition of the 'subject' that is more important.

Having experienced what I subsequently discovered was probably a temporal lobe/sleep paralysis episode in my teens I can say that while I was sure what I experienced was not a dream I was also equally convinced that it was something that had a natural as opposed to supernatural cause. Had I been religious rather than an instinctive atheist my attitude may have been very different.

It came as a relief when years later I read an article explaining these sorts of episodes though.


It's funny to think of the possibility that holy men etc were simply mentally ill and/or tripping off their nut on some plant and these experiences might explain Muhammed or Jesus.

I kind of like the idea.
Copehead wrote:You are making a fool of yourself.


Muskrat wrote:I'm undemonstrative during shows; no matter how much I enjoy them. People who get up and move around ("dance," if they will) strike me as show-offs

User avatar
The Great Defector
Posts: 15716
Joined: 07 Jan 2012, 18:16

Re: So, GOD then

Postby The Great Defector » 26 Sep 2017, 13:40

Goat Boy wrote:
It's funny to think of the possibility that holy men etc were simply mentally ill and/or tripping off their nut on some plant and these experiences might explain Muhammed or Jesus.

I kind of like the idea.



I like the idea of Jesus being the first evangelist, given it loads like the currents ones do but way way back in the day.

"DO YOU FEEL THE POWER OF GOD IN YOU! DO YOU FEEL THE POWER OF GOD IN YOU? GOD WANTS YOU TO SEE, GOD IS TELLING YOU TO OPEN YOUR EYES AND SEE, HALLELUGAH!!"
Loki wrote:You Brit boys are so contentious!

User avatar
Deebank
Resonator
Posts: 22400
Joined: 10 Oct 2003, 13:47
Location: In a beautiful place out in the country

Re: So, GOD then

Postby Deebank » 26 Sep 2017, 14:06

Goat Boy wrote:
Deebank wrote:
BCB Cup Winner 2011 wrote:But although a lab could induce the effect, the context would rob it of all meaning.


I don't know whether it's context or the predisposition of the 'subject' that is more important.

Having experienced what I subsequently discovered was probably a temporal lobe/sleep paralysis episode in my teens I can say that while I was sure what I experienced was not a dream I was also equally convinced that it was something that had a natural as opposed to supernatural cause. Had I been religious rather than an instinctive atheist my attitude may have been very different.

It came as a relief when years later I read an article explaining these sorts of episodes though.


It's funny to think of the possibility that holy men etc were simply mentally ill and/or tripping off their nut on some plant and these experiences might explain Muhammed or Jesus.

I kind of like the idea.


There are plenty of religions that use psychoactive substances as a 'sacrament' as I'm sure you know.

There's a weird episode in biblical archeological history where one of the foremost experts (a guy called John Allegro) who was at the time engaged with working on the dead sea scrolls fell massively out of favour because of his theories regarding christianity and magic mushrooms...

John Marco Allegro (17 February 1923 – 17 February 1988) was an English archaeologist and Dead Sea Scrolls scholar. He was a populariser of the Dead Sea Scrolls through his books and radio broadcasts. He was the editor of some of the most famous and controversial scrolls published, the pesharim. A number of Allegro's later books, including The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, brought him both popular fame and notoriety, and also destroyed his career.


Which might explain why more serious work hasn't been done on the role of psychedelics in the mainstream religions.

Anyhoo...

Allegro argued that Jesus in the Gospels was in fact a code for a type of hallucinogen, the Amanita muscaria, and that Christianity was the product of an ancient "sex-and-mushroom" cult.[28][29] Critical reaction was swift and harsh: fourteen British scholars (including Allegro's mentor at Oxford, Godfrey Driver) denounced it.[28] Sidnie White Crawford wrote of the publication of Sacred Mushroom, "Rightly or wrongly, Allegro would never be taken seriously as a scholar again."[30]


(all from WIkipedia)
Paid anghofio fod dy galon yn y chwyldro

User avatar
Deebank
Resonator
Posts: 22400
Joined: 10 Oct 2003, 13:47
Location: In a beautiful place out in the country

Re: So, GOD then

Postby Deebank » 26 Sep 2017, 14:12

The Great Defector wrote:God backwards.............is DOG.


Mind.......blown!

Image


Bur Bob backwards is still Bob!

Image

I always suspected you were a fellow subgenius!
Paid anghofio fod dy galon yn y chwyldro

User avatar
Rayge
Posts: 10866
Joined: 14 Aug 2013, 11:37
Location: deepest Devon
Contact:

Re: So, GOD then

Postby Rayge » 26 Sep 2017, 14:15

Deebank wrote:
Goat Boy wrote:
Deebank wrote:
I don't know whether it's context or the predisposition of the 'subject' that is more important.

Having experienced what I subsequently discovered was probably a temporal lobe/sleep paralysis episode in my teens I can say that while I was sure what I experienced was not a dream I was also equally convinced that it was something that had a natural as opposed to supernatural cause. Had I been religious rather than an instinctive atheist my attitude may have been very different.

It came as a relief when years later I read an article explaining these sorts of episodes though.


It's funny to think of the possibility that holy men etc were simply mentally ill and/or tripping off their nut on some plant and these experiences might explain Muhammed or Jesus.

I kind of like the idea.


There are plenty of religions that use psychoactive substances as a 'sacrament' as I'm sure you know.

There's a weird episode in biblical archeological history where one of the foremost experts (a guy called John Allegro) who was at the time engaged with working on the dead sea scrolls fell massively out of favour because of his theories regarding christianity and magic mushrooms...


Oh I read that. What struck me was that while his knowledge of T'Bible was second to few (Aleister Crowley being one of them) his knowledge of hallucinogens was lacking. Amanita muscaria doesn't have the psychoactive properties of psilocybes, which is basically what he was describing.
You can't play a tune on an absolute

When the ball sleeps it dreams it is a Frisbee

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. Love is the law, love under will

User avatar
Deebank
Resonator
Posts: 22400
Joined: 10 Oct 2003, 13:47
Location: In a beautiful place out in the country

Re: So, GOD then

Postby Deebank » 26 Sep 2017, 14:27

Rayge wrote:
Deebank wrote:
Goat Boy wrote:
It's funny to think of the possibility that holy men etc were simply mentally ill and/or tripping off their nut on some plant and these experiences might explain Muhammed or Jesus.

I kind of like the idea.


There are plenty of religions that use psychoactive substances as a 'sacrament' as I'm sure you know.

There's a weird episode in biblical archeological history where one of the foremost experts (a guy called John Allegro) who was at the time engaged with working on the dead sea scrolls fell massively out of favour because of his theories regarding christianity and magic mushrooms...


Oh I read that. What struck me was that while his knowledge of T'Bible was second to few (Aleister Crowley being one of them) his knowledge of hallucinogens was lacking. Amanita muscaria doesn't have the psychoactive properties of psilocybes, which is basically what he was describing.


Do Amanitas (or indeed Liberty Caps) grow in the middle east?

Fly Agaric needs careful preparation or it is poisonous I believe, hence the common name - it was used as an insecticide.
It was also used by the vikings to produce 'berserkers' (from drinking reindeer piss after the hapless ruminants had ingested the fungus - seems unlikely) and is why Santa flies around in a sledge and wears red and white... allegedly :)

A friend of mine at school experimented with Fly Agaric. He's still alive, but I don't remember him recommending the experience and besides North Wales is carpeted with Liberty Cap mushrooms (slight exaggeration).

Back to the Bible... St John the Devine (John of Patmos) is supposed to have been off his head when he wrote revelation isn't he?
Paid anghofio fod dy galon yn y chwyldro

User avatar
Rayge
Posts: 10866
Joined: 14 Aug 2013, 11:37
Location: deepest Devon
Contact:

Re: So, GOD then

Postby Rayge » 26 Sep 2017, 14:55

Deebank wrote:Do Amanitas (or indeed Liberty Caps) grow in the middle east?

Fly Agaric needs careful preparation or it is poisonous I believe, hence the common name - it was used as an insecticide.
It was also used by the vikings to produce 'berserkers' (from drinking reindeer piss after the hapless ruminants had ingested the fungus - seems unlikely) and is why Santa flies around in a sledge and wears red and white... allegedly :)

A friend of mine at school experimented with Fly Agaric. He's still alive, but I don't remember him recommending the experience and besides North Wales is carpeted with Liberty Cap mushrooms (slight exaggeration).

Back to the Bible... St John the Devine (John of Patmos) is supposed to have been off his head when he wrote revelation isn't he?


A muscaria is a native of northern woodlands, I think, but there are hundreds of others in the genus, growing all over the world. Some are psychoactive, some are toxic (often, in the literature, 'toxic' = psychoactive, but deadly ones, such as the Death Caps and all the Destroying Angels, are also in the genus). Liberty caps like grassland and meadows, and are are native to Europe, but are just one of 200 species containing psilocybin (I looked it up). I don't know if there were any growing and fruiting in the Middle East, although, as their properties were well known, I imagine dried Amanita and psilocybes might have been traded there in Biblical times.
The stuff about the reindeer piss I'm not sure about, but it's true that in shamanic rituals, the urine of those taking it is recycled as the active chemicals are excreted whole in the urine, and very quickly, too. (Oh, and Santa wears red and white because he appeared that way in a Coca Cola ad in the first half of the 20th century – they are Coke's colours – and it caught on. Prior to that he was as likely to be depicted in green robes, or furs).
I've never 'experimented' with fly agaric, but my friend JIm Boone did in the 1970s. The whole vomiting thing was unpleasant, but he did find himself in a suitably strange state for a while. His verdict, though, was that while there was acid, mescaline and psilocybin around, why bother?
And one of the entertaining little things in Crowley On Christ is his assertion that the cognomen 'the Divine' applied to John of Patmos was in fact a mistaken reading of a similar word, meaning, as he put it, 'sodomite'. And Revelation does read like a hallucinatory vision, certainly, and probably wouldn't have got past the editorial panel if it had been presented as Me and the Mushrooms by St John the Batty-Boy.
You can't play a tune on an absolute

When the ball sleeps it dreams it is a Frisbee

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. Love is the law, love under will

User avatar
Deebank
Resonator
Posts: 22400
Joined: 10 Oct 2003, 13:47
Location: In a beautiful place out in the country

Re: So, GOD then

Postby Deebank » 26 Sep 2017, 17:24

Rayge wrote:
Deebank wrote:Do Amanitas (or indeed Liberty Caps) grow in the middle east?

Fly Agaric needs careful preparation or it is poisonous I believe, hence the common name - it was used as an insecticide.
It was also used by the vikings to produce 'berserkers' (from drinking reindeer piss after the hapless ruminants had ingested the fungus - seems unlikely) and is why Santa flies around in a sledge and wears red and white... allegedly :)

A friend of mine at school experimented with Fly Agaric. He's still alive, but I don't remember him recommending the experience and besides North Wales is carpeted with Liberty Cap mushrooms (slight exaggeration).

Back to the Bible... St John the Devine (John of Patmos) is supposed to have been off his head when he wrote revelation isn't he?


A muscaria is a native of northern woodlands, I think, but there are hundreds of others in the genus, growing all over the world. Some are psychoactive, some are toxic (often, in the literature, 'toxic' = psychoactive, but deadly ones, such as the Death Caps and all the Destroying Angels, are also in the genus). Liberty caps like grassland and meadows, and are are native to Europe, but are just one of 200 species containing psilocybin (I looked it up). I don't know if there were any growing and fruiting in the Middle East, although, as their properties were well known, I imagine dried Amanita and psilocybes might have been traded there in Biblical times.
The stuff about the reindeer piss I'm not sure about, but it's true that in shamanic rituals, the urine of those taking it is recycled as the active chemicals are excreted whole in the urine, and very quickly, too. (Oh, and Santa wears red and white because he appeared that way in a Coca Cola ad in the first half of the 20th century – they are Coke's colours – and it caught on. Prior to that he was as likely to be depicted in green robes, or furs).
I've never 'experimented' with fly agaric, but my friend JIm Boone did in the 1970s. The whole vomiting thing was unpleasant, but he did find himself in a suitably strange state for a while. His verdict, though, was that while there was acid, mescaline and psilocybin around, why bother?
And one of the entertaining little things in Crowley On Christ is his assertion that the cognomen 'the Divine' applied to John of Patmos was in fact a mistaken reading of a similar word, meaning, as he put it, 'sodomite'. And Revelation does read like a hallucinatory vision, certainly, and probably wouldn't have got past the editorial panel if it had been presented as Me and the Mushrooms by St John the Batty-Boy.


My drug experimenter friend was somewhat 'suggestible' and I think this may be at the core of many drug and religious experiences.

We took the day off school and went to the Stermat hardware shop in a place called Gaerwen. I diligently bought a packed of morning glory seeds for our experiment - meanwhile he shoplifted the entire stock.

We retired to my house and ground up the seeds in my mum's electric mouli-grinder and then made some tea.

It was nasty but I managed to hold mine down. My friend Alex was copiously sick (he did eat the sludge mind you) and then seemed to get quite out of it. I felt nowt.

I saw the crescent
He saw the whole of the moon

:(
Paid anghofio fod dy galon yn y chwyldro