Idealism

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks

Idealist or what?

Idealist
3
33%
Realist
6
67%
Selfish bastard
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 9

Jimbo
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Idealism

Postby Jimbo » 24 Jul 2011, 15:53

Idealism and idealists get a bad rap, accused of having our heads in the clouds and rejecting reality. But as an idealist myself, someone who would like to see peace, love, happiness and justice throughout the world I am not naive and believe that an ideal like worldwide happiness may only be attained in heaven/hell but to merely strive for that goal along with similar thinking folks, well, that would be ideal. I had thought that if I were to start a political party I'd call it the Utopian Party. 8-)
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GoogaMooga
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Re: Idealism

Postby GoogaMooga » 24 Jul 2011, 15:56

I used to be an idealist, but now I'm a realist - mankind will not be saved.
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The Modernist

Re: Idealism

Postby The Modernist » 24 Jul 2011, 16:08

I try to be a realistic idealist. I'm not just trying to be clever there, that's actually an accurate summary of how I try and be.

The Great DeFector

Re: Idealism

Postby The Great DeFector » 24 Jul 2011, 16:46

I'd be the same as TCG, somethings would be class if they could work but they simply can't and it's not anyone's fault really.

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Uncle Spellbinder
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Re: Idealism

Postby Uncle Spellbinder » 24 Jul 2011, 17:03

TopCat G wrote:I try to be a realistic idealist. I'm not just trying to be clever there, that's actually an accurate summary of how I try and be.


Well said. I believe I'm an the same camp. Though my idealistic side shows it's head from time to time.
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Leg of lamb
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Re: Idealism

Postby Leg of lamb » 24 Jul 2011, 17:09

Dr Markus wrote:I'd be the same as TCG, somethings would be class if they could work but they simply can't and it's not anyone's fault really.


I love this line!

My own generation is probably the least idealistic generation there's been in ages. We all just assume that the status quo will prevail. At the time of the royal wedding bollocks, I was staggered by how few people my age opposed the very concept of royalty - most were behind it in this blithe, completely general and unthinking way, and not just because it gave them the excuse for a jolly. My parents and their friends are all much more radical than me and mine. It's a strange situation.

I continue to believe in the republic, though. And other things that would probably get me labelled an idealist.
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Re: Idealism

Postby The Great DeFector » 24 Jul 2011, 17:11

Leg of lamb wrote:
Dr Markus wrote:I'd be the same as TCG, somethings would be class if they could work but they simply can't and it's not anyone's fault really.


I love this line!



Explain please.

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Leg of lamb
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Re: Idealism

Postby Leg of lamb » 24 Jul 2011, 17:12

Dr Markus wrote:
Leg of lamb wrote:
Dr Markus wrote:I'd be the same as TCG, somethings would be class if they could work but they simply can't and it's not anyone's fault really.


I love this line!



Explain please.


Sorry, wasn't being funny - I genuinely do! The sort of thing I'd like to put on a bumper sticker.
Brother Spoon wrote:I would probably enjoy this record more if it came to me in a brown paper bag filled with manure, instead of this richly illustrated disgrace to my eyes.

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Re: Idealism

Postby The Great DeFector » 24 Jul 2011, 17:14

Coolio.

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Re: Idealism

Postby sloopjohnc » 24 Jul 2011, 17:19

I'd like to be idealistic, and think I am regarding people, but for example, I don't see the environment or us becoming more dramatically ecological in the near future, especially with China's economy expanding.

I think we're screwed.
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Davey the Fat Boy
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Re: Idealism

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 24 Jul 2011, 17:47

I don't really like the words 'idealist" and "utopian'. I think that by their very nature they make positive change seem like science fiction. Life is what we make it. If we as a people want a better world, we will make our world better. But I don't beleive it is as easy as just wanting it. If we really want something we are willing to work for it. Time has tought me that positive change is possible, but it is also born of struggle.

I think I am a pretty idealistic guy. I work in non-profits (currently coordinating volunteers for a blood organization), I volunteer myself whenever I can, I'm raising two kinds - one disabled child. I am generally happiest doing service, and that is how my life is organized. I absolutely believe the world can be better,

Jimbo - maybe I am wrong to assume it, but get the feeling that this thread is at least partially inspired by our discussions over the last few days. If so, you've got my position all wrong. I do not judge your idealism. It is your expectations of other people that I am questioning. Is it truly idealistic to expect somebody else to make the utopia you want? Is it fair to sit back and judge them a failure for not making our world perfect? If we choose to ignore the barriers that exist to the world we want, do they go away?

There is an old proverb that says something like, "wise men plant shade trees under whose shade they will never sit". I try to live my life along those lines. I try to chip away at the bad and make room for the good. But I don't make the perfect the enemy of the good. I don't think that is idealism at all. I think it is convenience.
Last edited by Davey the Fat Boy on 24 Jul 2011, 17:55, edited 1 time in total.
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sloopjohnc
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Re: Idealism

Postby sloopjohnc » 24 Jul 2011, 17:51

Davey Avon FatBoy wrote:There is an old proverb that says something like, "wise men plant shade trees under whose shade they will never sit". I try to live my life along those lines. I try to chip away at the bad and make room for the good. But I don't make the perfect the enemy of the good. I don't think that is idealism at all. I think it is convenience.


Where do patty melts fall on this spectrum?

Sorry. I can't help myself sometimes.

That was a good post, Davey.
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Re: Idealism

Postby Jimbo » 24 Jul 2011, 18:00

Davey Avon FatBoy wrote:
Jimbo - maybe I am wrong to assume it, but get the feeling that this thread is at least partially inspired by our discussions over the last few days.


No, you are right. I am irked that though given good suggestions and encouragement to make the world a better place a smart guy like Obama ignores the wisdom and follows a path that will lead to a swamp. The ideal would be for him to do as Krugman suggests and spend our way out of the mess. Now you will say that there are realities which stand in his way like political opposition. But if he believed Krugman was right, and it sure sounds right to me, he would argue for it and get the Dems and maybe a Republican or two on board. But I see now that Obama is not an idealist. He has ideas which will help and please the powerful and so help him to win re-election.
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Re: Idealism

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 24 Jul 2011, 19:04

Jimbo - you VASTLY underestimate the level of opposition there is to the kind of policy you'd want. I don't get the feeling you are interested in understanding the landscape. Easier to simply blame Obama. I don't think idealism is your flaw. I think laziness is.
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Re: Idealism

Postby Jimbo » 25 Jul 2011, 04:04

Davey Avon FatBoy wrote:Jimbo - you VASTLY underestimate the level of opposition there is to the kind of policy you'd want. I don't get the feeling you are interested in understanding the landscape. Easier to simply blame Obama. I don't think idealism is your flaw. I think laziness is.


Maybe it is too Hollywood but look at the crowds he drew when running for President. And these people weren't mouth breathing Republicans but good, common sense middle of the road Americans all shouting like commies on May Day, "Yes we can!" It was his charisma and smarts which got us going. If he started rallying us again in a similar idealistic fashion then I believe we'd get the kind of super-sized group demonstrations needed to stop the machine and bring some sanity back to America.
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Re: Idealism

Postby Velvis » 25 Jul 2011, 04:30

I was once an idealist, but now I am a realist, my optimistic spirit having been crushed by the heavy fist of reality. But I'm glad we still have idealists, and who knows, maybe some idealist will have a really great idea that makes things better. So here's to people like Noam Chomsky, Jimbo, and my son. May they give us the utopia we so richly don't deserve.
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Re: Idealism

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 25 Jul 2011, 05:36

Jimbo2 wrote:
Davey Avon FatBoy wrote:Jimbo - you VASTLY underestimate the level of opposition there is to the kind of policy you'd want. I don't get the feeling you are interested in understanding the landscape. Easier to simply blame Obama. I don't think idealism is your flaw. I think laziness is.


Maybe it is too Hollywood but look at the crowds he drew when running for President. And these people weren't mouth breathing Republicans but good, common sense middle of the road Americans all shouting like commies on May Day, "Yes we can!" It was his charisma and smarts which got us going. If he started rallying us again in a similar idealistic fashion then I believe we'd get the kind of super-sized group demonstrations needed to stop the machine and bring some sanity back to America.


I'm not going to argue that he couldn't have made greater use of the bully pulpit. I think he could have. But the framers of the constitution designed it specifically as a representative republic precisely to inhibit the kind of government in which people can be whipped into a frenzy and decide policy. They thought of it as mob rule and just as likely to be used by a dictator than a wise leader.

Anyhow - I'm not sure how filling stadiums was going to get the votes needed in congress for a bigger stimulus.
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Re: Idealism

Postby never/ever » 25 Jul 2011, 12:13

If I really want to be left alone does that make me a selfish bastard?
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Re: Idealism

Postby GoogaMooga » 25 Jul 2011, 12:15

never/ever wrote:If I really want to be left alone does that make me a selfish bastard?


I'd say you'd just be trying to protect yourself, and/or find peace of mind, I feel the same way.
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Re: Idealism

Postby never/ever » 25 Jul 2011, 12:16

GoogaMooga wrote:
never/ever wrote:If I really want to be left alone does that make me a selfish bastard?


I'd say you'd just be trying to protect yourself, and/or find peace of mind, I feel the same way.


Sounds like the Footy-option really...
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