the masked man's classic films club - Scarface

[Sea Of Tunes]

BTW was the chainsaw scene cut for TV release?

[Davey the Fat Boy]

i'm sorry, but so what?

so it's gratuitous. so it's glorifying crime. so some 17 yr old twat likes the violence, and decides the imagary of the film is a good thing to base his teengae fantasy life on.

surely the same can almost certainly said of Clockwork Orange? doesn't stop it being a great film though.

First off, Clockwork Orange actually is a great film. Second, it is not gratuitous in the least - nor does it glorify crime. While I suppose it could have given a teenager some bad ideas, it has more than enough redeeming qualities as art to justify itself. Tellingly it was never glorified by a culture of real life Droogs raping and killing the way that Scarface has been by gangbangers in recent years.

I don't care if scarface is the most meaningless film in existance. it is visually stunning, well written, and it's subject matter shocks me, and produces emotion in me, and at the end of the day sin't that what art is meant to do? make you think/feel stuff??

I suppose. But I don't think that every emotion that art can produce is equal, and shock is hardly a trick at all - I don't value it much. Personally Scarface doesn't produce much emotion in me, so I have a hard time relating to your response. Mostly it makes me feel numb.

I look at it like I look at "gangsta" rap. The first few guys who did it can possibly lay claim to "articulating the rage of the streets" - but the next 10,000 were just bandwagoners playing to the formula. Similarly Scarface jumped on the bandwagon of the entire genre of gangster movies that came before it with nothing new to offer except a bad accent and excess.

I won't condemn you or anyone else for liking it, but I could easily do without it.

[the masked man]

Tellingly it was never glorified by a culture of real life Droogs raping and killing the way that Scarface has been by gangbangers in recent years.

This isn't the case. There were indeed violent incidents in the UK which allegedly bore comparison to incidents in Kubrick's film. It is believed that this is the reason why Kubrick withdrew the film from British circulation (it was finally re-released here after his death; society did not suffer a subsequent breakdown).

I agree that ACO is a masterpiece (and a contender for a Classic Films thread in its own right), but the violence is extremely graphic and troublesome. It's easy to imagine a sick mind getting off on the rape scene. I'm not sure that you can create as clear a distinction between the two films.

[Davey the Fat Boy]

Tellingly it was never glorified by a culture of real life Droogs raping and killing the way that Scarface has been by gangbangers in recent years.

This isn't the case. There were indeed violent incidents in the UK which allegedly bore comparison to incidents in Kubrick's film. It is believed that this is the reason why Kubrick withdrew the film from British circulation (it was finally re-released here after his death; society did not suffer a subsequent breakdown).

I agree that ACO is a masterpiece (and a contender for a Classic Films thread in its own right), but the violence is extremely graphic and troublesome. It's easy to imagine a sick mind getting off on the rape scene. I'm not sure that you can create as clear a distinction between the two films.

I realize there were a few incidents in the UK that were blamed on the film - and perhaps one or two of them really were.* But certainly you cannot equate that with the culture that's sprung up around Scarface.

As for the distinction between the fims - I think it is stark. While I've already conceded that either could certainly inspire violence in someone already inclined towards it, Clockwork is not gratuitous. The violence in the film is absolutely vital for the artistic statement being made. In Scarface the violence is the statement.

* For what it is worth Kubrick claimed that the film was pulled due to death threats against his family - not a rising tide of copycat violence.

[Matt Wilson]

I love it.
And though The Godfather was my favorite film for decades I've probably seen Scarface just as much. You either buy into it or you don't. Articulation is useless when you're dealing with a picture like this.

It's also, what? Three hours?
That's gotta be the fastest three hours in film history.

It may not be a 'classic' like the original, or the Coppola epics, but it's as watchable as any film I've ever seen. A 'Matt' movie if ever there was one.

[Mr Maps]

Haven't seen it in awhile but I remember it being pretty awful and Pacino's performance embarrassing.

Even more I hate the cult built up around it by hip hoppers and students.

[The Tourist]

Tellingly it was never glorified by a culture of real life Droogs raping and killing the way that Scarface has been by gangbangers in recent years.

This isn't the case. There were indeed violent incidents in the UK which allegedly bore comparison to incidents in Kubrick's film. It is believed that this is the reason why Kubrick withdrew the film from British circulation (it was finally re-released here after his death; society did not suffer a subsequent breakdown).

I agree that ACO is a masterpiece (and a contender for a Classic Films thread in its own right), but the violence is extremely graphic and troublesome. It's easy to imagine a sick mind getting off on the rape scene. I'm not sure that you can create as clear a distinction between the two films.

I agree. ACO almost felt cartoony and unreal to me. I guess the problem for me was by the time I saw it, that level of violence was somewhat passe in terms of the films i'd seen, and the focus was more on the speech, and the comedy.

Scarface was just horriffic the first time. I like to be shocked, I like to see people doing truly evil things in film, purely because I view most entertainment as escapism. for the same reason I rarely watch reality tv, or documentaries that aren't historical or scientific, I just don't want any film I watch to have the remotest connection to the way I live my life. therefore watching bad people doing disgusting things and doing them with style is kinda tolerant. I like to be able to get away from the dullness of real life, and scarface provides that for me.

I also like gangsta rap. it's funny.

[Davey the Fat Boy]

I like to be shocked, I like to see people doing truly evil things in film, purely because I view most entertainment as escapism. for the same reason I rarely watch reality tv, or documentaries that aren't historical or scientific, I just don't want any film I watch to have the remotest connection to the way I live my life. therefore watching bad people doing disgusting things and doing them with style is kinda tolerant. I like to be able to get away from the dullness of real life, and scarface provides that for me.

Crime porn.

[Sea Of Tunes]

Haven't seen it in awhile but I remember it being pretty awful and Pacino's performance embarrassing.

Even more I hate the cult built up around it by hip hoppers and students.

...is the right answer. Allow me to concur here.

[The Tourist]

I like to be shocked, I like to see people doing truly evil things in film, purely because I view most entertainment as escapism. for the same reason I rarely watch reality tv, or documentaries that aren't historical or scientific, I just don't want any film I watch to have the remotest connection to the way I live my life. therefore watching bad people doing disgusting things and doing them with style is kinda tolerant. I like to be able to get away from the dullness of real life, and scarface provides that for me.

Crime porn.

is it me or are we now going round in circles?

I don't care if scarface is the most meaningless film in existance.

[Sea Of Tunes]

I like to be shocked, I like to see people doing truly evil things in film, purely because I view most entertainment as escapism. for the same reason I rarely watch reality tv, or documentaries that aren't historical or scientific, I just don't want any film I watch to have the remotest connection to the way I live my life. therefore watching bad people doing disgusting things and doing them with style is kinda tolerant. I like to be able to get away from the dullness of real life, and scarface provides that for me.

Crime porn.

is it me or are we now going round in circles?

I don't care if scarface is the most meaningless film in existance.

Yes. It's what chain saws are made for.

[The Tourist]

you mean circular saws?

[Sea Of Tunes]

you mean circular saws?

Dammit! I didn't see the difference. Language barrier, yes, but foremost not being Bob The Builder in any sense...

[The Tourist]

you mean circular saws?

Dammit! I didn't see the difference. Language barrier, yes, but foremost not being Bob The Builder in any sense...

either way a horrible way to go...

[The Modernist]

As I said earlier I enjoyed Scarface, but it didn't really do anything new. All the conventions from the WB 30's gangster movies are there, it didn't reinvent the genre in the manner of a Godfather or Goodfellas.