The art of monstrous men.

..and why not?
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The art of monstrous men.

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 21 Nov 2017, 03:58

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Re: The art of monstrous men.

Postby Darkness_Fish » 21 Nov 2017, 09:28

"Roman Polanski, Woody Allen, Bill Cosby, William Burroughs, Richard Wagner, Sid Vicious, V. S. Naipaul, John Galliano, Norman Mailer, Ezra Pound, Caravaggio, Floyd Mayweather...
They did or said something awful, and made something great."

Sid Vicious?
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Re: The art of monstrous men.

Postby Fonz » 21 Nov 2017, 09:57

It’s ok. It makes a lot of assumptions about men and women in the final third. Stereotypes. That kind of thing.

I’m guilty of using stereotypes so I shouldn’t grumble.
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Re: The art of monstrous men.

Postby !!VAPRANT!! » 21 Nov 2017, 10:00

Darkness_Fish wrote:"Roman Polanski, Woody Allen, Bill Cosby, William Burroughs, Richard Wagner, Sid Vicious, V. S. Naipaul, John Galliano, Norman Mailer, Ezra Pound, Caravaggio, Floyd Mayweather...
They did or said something awful, and made something great."

Sid Vicious?


Killed Nancy Spungen.
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Re: The art of monstrous men.

Postby Darkness_Fish » 21 Nov 2017, 10:13

*fun and open field* wrote:
Darkness_Fish wrote:"Roman Polanski, Woody Allen, Bill Cosby, William Burroughs, Richard Wagner, Sid Vicious, V. S. Naipaul, John Galliano, Norman Mailer, Ezra Pound, Caravaggio, Floyd Mayweather...
They did or said something awful, and made something great."

Sid Vicious?


Killed Nancy Spungen.

I was more questioning the "made something great" part of the statement. Or are you counting that for both sections?
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Re: The art of monstrous men.

Postby Goat Boy » 21 Nov 2017, 10:16

His cover of My Way?
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Re: The art of monstrous men.

Postby !!VAPRANT!! » 21 Nov 2017, 10:22

Oh, well, I suppose at least nominally he was a member of the Pistols
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Re: The art of monstrous men.

Postby Goat Boy » 21 Nov 2017, 10:36

I guess we all draw our own lines in regards to what kind of behaviour compromises the artists work enough for us to stop listening/watching. Personally I’ve never really felt this because there’s always that disconnect with me. I think Polanski was a great film maker who made a handful of masterpieces. The fact that he raped a 13 year old does not stop me enjoying these movies. When I listen to Phil Spector records I’m not thinking what a horrible, abusive, murdering piece of shit he was. I’m just enjoying the music. Maybe that sounds simplistic but it’s how my brain works.

I understand that not everybody feels like this of course. I could understand how watching Polanski in the Tenant or Woody Allen in Manhattan might really bother people although I don’t consider Allen to be the offender that some people do.

As a general comment I do worry that there may be a trend towards, I dunno, making works of art that some consider to be fatally compromised by the transgressions of the creator persona non grata, so to speak. I can see that happening in future.
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Re: The art of monstrous men.

Postby Moleskin » 21 Nov 2017, 11:16

Is there a difference between the art before the "crimes" came to light, and those that came after? Should Polanski be employed to make films?
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Re: The art of monstrous men.

Postby Goat Boy » 21 Nov 2017, 12:54

Moleskin wrote:Is there a difference between the art before the "crimes" came to light, and those that came after?


Not for me no. Others feel different of course. I think Mark Cousins said something about this recently for example

Should Polanski be employed to make films?


People are free to employ him and therefore people will. He’s a world renowned film maker and that will always usurp everything else. People are also free to avoid his movies.

Do I think he should be employed? No but then it's easy for me to say that.

There’s a lot of hypocrisy around Polanski of course and it’s an interesting topic. People have a natural habit of overlooking the less savoury aspects of people if they give them something back. This can just be something as relatively harmless as overlooking a mates arseholish behaviour because they make you laugh or do entertaining shit when they’re drunk. Naturally when it comes to artists who produce Great Art then people who know them will also turn the other cheek. I don’t get too judgemental about that sorta thing because I think it’s just something that people do but it does lead, inevitably, to murky moral waters. I think people also see an artists work as proof of their "goodness" too somehow. Wagners music, for example, reaffirms that he wasn't a total cunt. There was beauty and humanity in there too and I'd agree because people are not necessarily one or the other obviously. Their art balances the books somehow and cleanses their sins to a degree.

I suspect with Polanski some people also feel he has served his time somehow because of the “consequences” of his actions that he has had to live with for decades. I don’t agree mind.
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Re: The art of monstrous men.

Postby Darkness_Fish » 21 Nov 2017, 12:57

Moleskin wrote:Should Polanski be employed to make films?

Not if The Ghost Writer is typical of his work.
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Re: The art of monstrous men.

Postby Rayge » 21 Nov 2017, 13:26

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:This is a really great article...


It seemed to me very much a navel-gazing piece, and that towards the end, she made a leap too far. And the fact that, despite the quality of the writing, it was (almost) all pegged on Woody Allen, despite the roll-call of far more interesting names at the beginning, made it less interesting to me.

Anyways, as to the question it raised, as far as I am concerned, the quality of a work of art lies neither in its creator nor in the work itself, but in the viewer/reader/listener/consumer*, so this sort of thing has never consciously affected the way I view, or listen to, anything.



*as of course do the varying degrees of moral turpitude ascribed to the creators and in the public domain
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Re: The art of monstrous men.

Postby Snarfyguy » 21 Nov 2017, 14:41

Darkness_Fish wrote:
Moleskin wrote:Should Polanski be employed to make films?

Not if The Ghost Writer is typical of his work.

Was that the one with Ewan MacGregor? That was God-awful.
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Re: The art of monstrous men.

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 21 Nov 2017, 15:36

Rayge wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:This is a really great article...


It seemed to me very much a navel-gazing piece, and that towards the end, she made a leap too far.


I like a good gaze at the navel. Sometimes I get more from seeing the leaps that the associative mind makes than I do from another “fully-reasoned” argument.

I’m really intrigued by that last leap. Maybe it’s because I was an artist myself and confronted the same unwillingness to be the monster I would have had to have been to have reached my artistic potential.

I think it’s worth asking whether the kind of indulgence it takes to be an artist of merit can make some artists veer towards the sociopathic. More challenging...is this a systemic issue? Have we created a society and a set of expectations around “greatness” that feeds into that dynamic?

Maybe it IS a leap too far from the original question. But I think it’s an interesting leap.
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Re: The art of monstrous men.

Postby Geezee » 21 Nov 2017, 16:07

Goat Boy wrote: People have a natural habit of overlooking the less savoury aspects of people if they give them something back.


It transfers into personal life as well. I find it hard to find the right balance from friends of mine who have committed some pretty bad crimes. We've shared a lot together, and they've been nothing but incredible friends to me. do I just drop everything? It's tough.
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Re: The art of monstrous men.

Postby Rayge » 21 Nov 2017, 17:10

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:I like a good gaze at the navel. Sometimes I get more from seeing the leaps that the associative mind makes than I do from another “fully-reasoned” argument.

I’m really intrigued by that last leap. Maybe it’s because I was an artist myself and confronted the same unwillingness to be the monster I would have had to have been to have reached my artistic potential.

I think it’s worth asking whether the kind of indulgence it takes to be an artist of merit can make some artists veer towards the sociopathic. More challenging...is this a systemic issue? Have we created a society and a set of expectations around “greatness” that feeds into that dynamic?

Maybe it IS a leap too far from the original question. But I think it’s an interesting leap.


I'm really looking forward to giving this a long reply, because I'm fascinated by the subject, but currently too busy :) . I will be back
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Re: The art of monstrous men.

Postby algroth » 21 Nov 2017, 17:21

Snarfyguy wrote:
Darkness_Fish wrote:
Moleskin wrote:Should Polanski be employed to make films?

Not if The Ghost Writer is typical of his work.

Was that the one with Ewan MacGregor? That was God-awful.

I thought it was great, personally.

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Re: The art of monstrous men.

Postby Darkness_Fish » 21 Nov 2017, 21:16

algroth wrote:
Snarfyguy wrote:
Darkness_Fish wrote:Not if The Ghost Writer is typical of his work.

Was that the one with Ewan MacGregor? That was God-awful.

I thought it was great, personally.

You couldn't be more wrong. Shockingly badly plotted, poorly cast, misguided, and entirely pointless.

And it still annoys me that they tried to steal Eric Morecambe's "all the right notes..." line.
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Re: The art of monstrous men.

Postby The Modernist » 21 Nov 2017, 23:48

There is an interesting article to be written about this subject, although this isn't it. The writer came across as as bit nutty.