New Star Wars trilogy

..and why not?
User avatar
The Modernist
Posts: 9640
Joined: 13 Apr 2014, 20:42

Re: New Star Wars trilogy

Postby The Modernist » 14 Nov 2017, 23:05

Belle Lettre wrote:
Stirring post, Dougie. There is another film where the score is as important - Jaws of course, more John Williams.


There are tons of films where the score is hugely important, although it's hard to think of someone as unsubtle and blindingly obvious as Williams (Danny Effman comes close), which is probably what is meant here.

User avatar
The Modernist
Posts: 9640
Joined: 13 Apr 2014, 20:42

Re: New Star Wars trilogy

Postby The Modernist » 14 Nov 2017, 23:08

Rayge wrote:I'm impressed by Dougie's analysis, but the one SW film I saw (the first), I realized it was basically a fairy tale with fancy hardware to get the boys interested, aimed at people half my age.


Yeah, Dougie's put a lot into that post so I'm loathe to dissect it and pick holes. But I think it's success is chiefly a lowest common denominator thing (thematically it's on the same level as a 30s Flash Gordon film) combined with very clever marketing. And once you've bought into it then you becoming part of this gigantic community of fans and I think people are really drawn to those kind of shared experiences, and because it's been going so long shared histories, these days.

User avatar
Belle Lettre
Éminence grise
Posts: 15004
Joined: 09 Oct 2008, 07:16
Location: Antiterra

Re: New Star Wars trilogy

Postby Belle Lettre » 15 Nov 2017, 00:13

The Modernist wrote:
Belle Lettre wrote:
Stirring post, Dougie. There is another film where the score is as important - Jaws of course, more John Williams.


There are tons of films where the score is hugely important, although it's hard to think of someone as unsubtle and blindingly obvious as Williams (Danny Effman comes close), which is probably what is meant here.

Oh, thank you for making that clear :D
Nikki Gradual wrote:
Get a fucking grip you narcissistic cretins.

User avatar
Still Baron
Diamond Geezer
Posts: 42078
Joined: 18 Jul 2003, 05:38
Location: Impregnable Citadel of Technicality

Re: New Star Wars trilogy

Postby Still Baron » 15 Nov 2017, 04:36

Star Wars came out when I was 3. I was too young to see it in the movies. Empire came out, when was it, 81? I was 7 and saw it 3 times at the theatre. I loved it like everyone else and more than most of my friends. I got as many toys as I could talk my parents into buying and watched the Saturday morning cartoons in feverish anticipation to see commercials for the new stuff that was coming out as the new movies were being rolled out.

Goat Boy talked about the movies as “cinema.” On that level, in my humble opinion, they are absolute fucking tripe.

Star Wars nostalgia (as displayed by many of my 40 something friends and acquaintances who still buy toys or have new merch and are still way into it all) makes me want to puke.

But you know what I do when a new one is coming out? I watch the trailer when someone posts it or I run across it on TV, and I get a little excited. Then I go see it in the theatre, and I always have a good time. And you know why?

Toby wrote:There's a whole load of aesthetics involved with the Star Wars trilogy that, if you were into them as a child, just seem to hit the serotonin when you watch them as an adult. If it's not the "beat up" nature of the setting, with dusty, falling apart spaceships, then it might be just the sound of lightsabers igniting or the music itself, which is a fundamental part of the movies.


Hearing the Star Wars sounds, seeing the Star Wars colors, and seeing just how badass the Star Wars bad guys look in the new movie. Those things are all major seratonin depth charges and make it totally worth it. That shit makes me really happy.
take5_d_shorterer wrote:If John Bonham simply didn't listen to enough Tommy Johnson or Blind Willie Mctell, that's his doing.

User avatar
Goat Boy
Bogarting the joint
Posts: 30446
Joined: 20 Mar 2007, 12:11
Location: In the perfumed garden

Re: New Star Wars trilogy

Postby Goat Boy » 15 Nov 2017, 10:01

The Modernist wrote:
Belle Lettre wrote:
Stirring post, Dougie. There is another film where the score is as important - Jaws of course, more John Williams.


There are tons of films where the score is hugely important, although it's hard to think of someone as unsubtle and blindingly obvious as Williams (Danny Effman comes close), which is probably what is meant here.


There are but that wasn’t quite my point. Few movies use the score in such an elemental way to the point where it feels more important than what’s actually happening on screen. It’s like a running commentary throughout the movies. I think it’s hugely effective, you think it’s shit. The main theme of Lawrence of Arabia is not subtle either. Subtlety is not always a virtue (I actually do think there is subtlety and beauty btw)

(thematically it's on the same level as a 30s Flash Gordon film)


I disagree. Compare the Flash Gordon movie to Star Wars triology I absolutely do think there is more thematic depth there. It many ways Lukes coming of age story and that’s the main theme and probably what resonates most deeply with some fans but it touches on other stuff too. Vadars story, for example, is ultimately one of redemption, where the simple good/evil dichotomy is challenged creating something more interesting and, yes, thematically nuanced. None of this is examined with any real depth it’s fair to say but it doesn’t have to be. Just touching on things is sometimes enough in a film. I mean somebody mentioned Bladerunner and I think that’s pretty superficial in its exploration of what it means to be a human but it’s deep enough, you know? I think Star Wars is as deep as it needs to be.

Frankly I don’t think you, or Coan for that matter have much feel for this sorta thing. By ‘thing’ I mean blockbuster popcorn movies with an emphasis on special effects and pure immersive escapism. Coan is more likely to watch Alan Bennett arsing about with a crumpet and talking about such middling holiday in fucking Scunthorpe* and I don’t see much evidence of you seeking this kind of movie out either. That’s cool.

But when you say stuff like this:

But I think it's success is chiefly a lowest common denominator thing combined with very clever marketing. And once you've bought into it then you becoming part of this gigantic community of fans and I think people are really drawn to those kind of shared experiences, and because it's been going so long shared histories, these days.


Then I think you’re starting to sound like a bit of tedious snob here.

People do like to belong to a group, of course and, yes, people do seek out shared experiences but to reduce its appeal to this and “clever marketing” is too reductionist and a wee bit patronising. Besides, not all Star wars fans are part of that particular community and I certainly don't feel much kinship with it, particularly the hardcore element but then I feel an aversion to groups in general. It's always been a more personal relationship for me.

Anyway, we’ve been here before every time Star Wars comes up on here and it’s a bit boring really because opinions are so polarised. I think I’ve said about as much as I can you know? :)

* to be serious Coan likes character driven movies set in the real world
German Dave wrote:Have a long hard look in the mirror will you

User avatar
Goat Boy
Bogarting the joint
Posts: 30446
Joined: 20 Mar 2007, 12:11
Location: In the perfumed garden

Re: New Star Wars trilogy

Postby Goat Boy » 15 Nov 2017, 10:25

Darryl Strawberry wrote:
Goat Boy wrote:For two movies it got it right


Three.

Return of the Jedi is brilliant. The fight scene between Luke and Vader is incredible.



I think it’s a significant step down but, yeah, the final battle accompanied by the choral music is great. A real highlight.

The original premise would have been more interesting and downbeat. Obviously Gary Katz left due to creative differences with Lucas over the direction of the movie sadly
German Dave wrote:Have a long hard look in the mirror will you

User avatar
Toby
Arsehole all Erect
Posts: 21997
Joined: 28 Jul 2003, 23:13
Contact:

Re: New Star Wars trilogy

Postby Toby » 15 Nov 2017, 10:47

There is no doubt that Star Wars is everywhere nowadays - you only have to go in a kids clothes shop or even a supermarket, and it's there in some form. That part of it I find distasteful.

I also think grown men and women dressing up as Star Wars characters is pretty fucking sad too. But perhaps that tells us that for whatever reason modern western society has less and less meaning for a lot of people, and so they want to bury themselves in a form of escapism that has an element of meaning, even if it's a simple good vs evil polarity.

User avatar
Goat Boy
Bogarting the joint
Posts: 30446
Joined: 20 Mar 2007, 12:11
Location: In the perfumed garden

Re: New Star Wars trilogy

Postby Goat Boy » 15 Nov 2017, 10:55

Toby wrote:There is no doubt that Star Wars is everywhere nowadays - you only have to go in a kids clothes shop or even a supermarket, and it's there in some form. That part of it I find distasteful.

I also think grown men and women dressing up as Star Wars characters is pretty fucking sad too. But perhaps that tells us that for whatever reason modern western society has less and less meaning for a lot of people, and so they want to bury themselves in a form of escapism that has an element of meaning, even if it's a simple good vs evil polarity.


I think I saw an advert for Star Wars yogurt the other day. It annoyed me. I'm sure a lot of fans feel the same about that shit.

I have never dressed up as a Star Wars character either. I'd rather eat dog shit.
German Dave wrote:Have a long hard look in the mirror will you

User avatar
Belle Lettre
Éminence grise
Posts: 15004
Joined: 09 Oct 2008, 07:16
Location: Antiterra

Re: New Star Wars trilogy

Postby Belle Lettre » 15 Nov 2017, 14:03

Goat Boy wrote:
There are but that wasn’t quite my point. Few movies use the score in such an elemental way to the point where it feels more important than what’s actually happening on screen. It’s like a running commentary throughout the movies


I think it's the same with Jaws, which is why I mentioned it.
Nikki Gradual wrote:
Get a fucking grip you narcissistic cretins.

User avatar
Moleskin
Posts: 14321
Joined: 18 Feb 2004, 12:38
Location: We began to notice that we could be free, And we moved together to the West.

Re: New Star Wars trilogy

Postby Moleskin » 15 Nov 2017, 14:22

Toby wrote:There is no doubt that Star Wars is everywhere nowadays - you only have to go in a kids clothes shop or even a supermarket, and it's there in some form.


This touches on something else. Star Wars was one of the first massively merchandised films. Even in the 80s there were tons of toys. The children who had those toys could invest a lot more into the world of the movies, replaying scenes from the film on the bedroom floor, or creating their own adventures. I think that plays a part in the modern ubiquity of Star Wars.

It's also a lesson every film-maker seems to have taken to heart. When was the last time you saw a blockbuster type film without toys and other ephemera on the supermarket shelves?
@hewsim
-the artist formerly known as comrade moleskin-
-the unforgettable waldo jeffers-

Jug Band Music
my own music

User avatar
Thang-y
Posts: 971
Joined: 29 Apr 2016, 17:59
Contact:

Re: New Star Wars trilogy

Postby Thang-y » 04 Dec 2017, 20:05

never/ever wrote:It really has become a nice milking cow for Disney who are well on their way to become the Evil Empire of this little galaxy.
So far the recent trip has been enjoyable but I won't hang on forever.


You lost me at Disney.

User avatar
Matt Wilson
Psychedelic Cowpunk
Posts: 28391
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 20:18
Location: Edge of a continent

Re: New Star Wars trilogy

Postby Matt Wilson » 04 Dec 2017, 20:58

Goat Boy wrote:
Toby wrote:I have never dressed up as a Star Wars character either. I'd rather eat dog shit.


Yeah, but you'd rather eat dog shit than do most things.

User avatar
Toby
Arsehole all Erect
Posts: 21997
Joined: 28 Jul 2003, 23:13
Contact:

Re: New Star Wars trilogy

Postby Toby » 05 Dec 2017, 11:23

Just over a week to go. I wasn't hugely fussed by the trailers for this instalment, but I reckon Johnson might just come up with the goods on this one.

To be honest, JJ Abrams pulled the wool over our eyes a little with The Force Awakens. It's not a bad film per se in that I went the cinema (twice) and enjoyed it, but as a piece of the Star Wars story itself, it's a bit lame and I don't think it'll age particularly well.

Johnson has the ability to make this one much more a part of something much better for later films, and cast the moorings off from the older ones. It looks a lot darker for one thing. Here's hoping.

User avatar
Quaco
F R double E
Posts: 45873
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 19:41

Re: New Star Wars trilogy

Postby Quaco » 08 Dec 2017, 02:42

I need to go back and read Dougie's post (and a couple others), but I want to quickly add that I am the target age for the original Star Wars. I saw the first movie twice -- unusual to do that at that age -- and even stole the novel from the local book store! I went as Darth Vader that Halloween. I liked it a lot. But once the second one came out, I realized there was something very wrong with it.

It was an unconscious thing I was feeling. As a single movie, it was great and reached a new level of excitement, but as an ongoing thing, suddenly it seemed too random and magic-y. Science fiction like Star Trek or 2001 actually thinks about what could happen and the consequences, at least to some extent. It expands your view of the plausible. Star Wars was just anything they wanted to happen could magically happen. I think the magic/Force aspect bugged me. It's kind of like RELIGION and all that vague shit, rather than science or anything semi-logical. It seemed like a step backward into superstitious dark ages, and there's nothing sexy or cool about that. I realized I didn't like the Biblical desert vibe either. (Later I realized large portions of it were cribbed from Jack Kirby's Fourth World, which makes me even more suspicious of it, even though I have to admit Lucas did a great job of it.)

Of course, I did not think any of this consciously. Maybe it was just a case of losing interest when the second film came out. But it did sort of ruin the first one too. I have a close friend who is a huge Star Wars geek. We watched Empire the other day, and I did enjoy it, largely because it was a dub of the 16mm version, which had a different real-film look. But it still reminded me I see the whole franchise as symbolic of something wrong. Kind of like how I feel about the resurgence of Americana at this late point in rock and roll's history. It just seems like we're going the wrong direction...
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

User avatar
Quaco
F R double E
Posts: 45873
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 19:41

Re: New Star Wars trilogy

Postby Quaco » 08 Dec 2017, 02:58

Goat Boy wrote:To use a musical analogy, Star Wars was the closest cinema has come to the Beatles.

...

Young man living in some crappy dustbowl planet where nothing happens, occasionally staring off into the distance at night longingly dreaming of adventure. Think of the scene with Luke and two suns. Listen to John Williams music and understand what is very obviously being communicated here. It’s universal and its simplicity does not limit its power. On the contrary it’s the simplicity that gives it its power. Who can’t relate to Luke here? Who hasn’t dreamed what he is dreaming here? It’s a great cinematic moment.

Reading Doug's post, I want to posit that Star Wars is more like Bruce Springsteen. I think it's a pretty apt analogy.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -