The Last Jedi

..and why not?
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Sneelock
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Re: The Last Jedi

Postby Sneelock » 18 Dec 2017, 19:08

The Great Defector wrote:I didn't write him off as nobody, just the wrong person for this gig. I bet a lot of people said "Who?" when his name was mentioned.



but, isn't that par for the course with big franchise movies? I mean, Sam Mendes on Bond and Tarantino's Star Trek seem like exceptions rather than the rule. I think producers want capable directors but, with a high profile guy like Edgar Wright on 'Ant Man' ,will give them the boot if they go too far off the reservation.

I think Johnson's good reviews for this one are mainly because our press is still in the habit of laying credit or blame on directors. Abrams may have been a simpatico producer but I'll bet him and Disney's top management were still calling the shots.
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Re: The Last Jedi

Postby Dr Markus » 18 Dec 2017, 19:20

True, I did say "(and there is directors/writers able to jump from one genre to another)". Just so we're clear, I think HE was the wrong choice. Jackson got LOTR after not a lot of big time movies, Sam Raimi got the Spider-Man gig, both of which did great jobs (except for Spider-Man 3, that was shit). Johnson just did a terrible job at it, and nothing really in his catalogue suggests why he was chosen. Raimi is a massive Spider-Man fan, and Jackson is a massive LOTR fan. At least they have that going for them.
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Re: The Last Jedi

Postby Sneelock » 18 Dec 2017, 19:28

well, I liked "Last Jedi" & "Looper" a lot better than you. I think producers like directors they feel like they can talk to. the first Star Wars sequels had two very capable directors with no real genre pedigree. Irv Kirshner turned out to be a good choice & Richard Marquand must have done at least okay. I remember standing in line to see "Return of the Jedi" and the loudest complainers in line were also boasting of seeing it for the second or third time. I guess they thought this fact gave their opinion more merit. maybe it did.

I try my best to keep my expectations in the trunk of my car when I see a sequel but this is hard to do. I let them out later and then we compare notes. usually the expectations don't really change but sometimes I wonder why I held them as firmly as I did.
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Re: The Last Jedi

Postby algroth » 18 Dec 2017, 22:16

The Great Defector wrote:The dude that wrote AND directed it directed Looper and nothing else of note. There was probably script doctors paid to keep their names off the credits but how the fuck did he get the job? Looper wasn't that great. He's doing the next one too? :shock: Apparently Lucas's version or idea for these movies was totally different, and Disney told him "thanks but no thanks, we got this". Would love to know what Lucas would have done.


Lucas was quite pleased with The Last Jedi actually, from what I've heard. Also, Johnson made Brick and directed some of the best episodes of Breaking Bad, so he's got that going for him. To be honest the whole endeavour feels so studio-compromised that I can't really say if it's a problem with his writing or if it'd been better/worse with another writer involved, but from the perspective of his directorial vision I think he has a great eye and sensibility. There are moments of brilliance in this film, but they exist in this mire of utterly poor narrative decisions.

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Re: The Last Jedi

Postby Dr Markus » 18 Dec 2017, 22:20

Aye I read Lucas liked it, mentioned that earlier. Still like to know what his ideas were.
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Re: The Last Jedi

Postby Sneelock » 19 Dec 2017, 00:04

algroth wrote: utterly poor narrative decisions.

true! But... STAR WARS!!!!!
they're always a little too clunky, a little too cutsey, a little too this & that.
I'm surprised at the social media meltdown over it. I think it's a VERY pleasant way to spend a couple of hours.
it must be said, as always, the acting lifts it all up a notch - for me anyway.
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Re: The Last Jedi

Postby Belle Lettre » 19 Dec 2017, 07:01

I feel certain I shall enjoy it now.
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Re: The Last Jedi

Postby Goat Boy » 19 Dec 2017, 09:38

I tried writing something longer but kept getting locked out.

I think there are some bad misjudgements here. Worryingly I can really see the influence of Disney and Marvel.

If Rhian Johnson is the shit hot young director who's going to take these movies on then good luck to him but based on this I would say I'm unconvinced as to whether he is the best person for the job.
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Re: The Last Jedi

Postby algroth » 19 Dec 2017, 14:41

Sneelock wrote:
algroth wrote: utterly poor narrative decisions.

true! But... STAR WARS!!!!!
they're always a little too clunky, a little too cutsey, a little too this & that.
I'm surprised at the social media meltdown over it. I think it's a VERY pleasant way to spend a couple of hours.
it must be said, as always, the acting lifts it all up a notch - for me anyway.

I would criticize two things here: firstly I don't see why a new film in a given saga ought to strive to imitate the failures of its predecessors instead of correcting or improving on them, so for me the idea that "well, the others did X too!" doesn't really hold much water; but then, perhaps more importantly I feel that in the better Star Wars films so far, sure, there may have been a few deus ex machinas about, but the narrative structure was always solid and there was some kind of arc, not least thanks to their rather dilligent adherence to Campbell's monomyth and so on. There was no such foundation in this film, I felt, where characters beyond Poe Dameron didn't really seem to move an inch and huge diversions were taken for seemingly no reason whatsoever. The twists here came more like rug-pulls and made the whole story come across as fickle, like it wasn't ever sure where it wanted to go. And what are we left with exactly, in the end of it all? I feel at this point that Episode IX will have to be another course-correction as this one seemed to be of the past film, simply because I cannot picture a satisfying conclusion with whatever bits of story and characters we're left with at the end of The Last Jedi, quite frankly.

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Re: The Last Jedi

Postby Sneelock » 19 Dec 2017, 19:53

I think the director is handling the online backlash pretty well.
http://www.businessinsider.com/star-war ... sh-2017-12
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Re: The Last Jedi

Postby Matt Wilson » 20 Dec 2017, 17:09

I liked it. I don't get the reaction of those who enjoyed The Force Awakens but don't dig this one. Both of them very much pay homage to episode four. I could point out at least three scenes in both The Last Jedi and Force Awakens which are just rewrites of scenes in the original Star Wars. I hope that the new trilogy that is being written has a few more original ideas though, and isn't so much in awe (story-wise) of episodes 4 - 6. But then, if everything is totally new, then the fans will complain that it's too different from previous Star Wars films so these writers really can't win.

Goldwax has a post on Facebook where people complain about flaws in science like when bombs dropped from ships in space fall down and explode, and I brought up the whole Leia in space scene - so there are definitely some questionable things in the new film where a proper suspension of disbelief is required. But overall, I still enjoyed it. Seeing it in 3D on an IMAX screen helps.
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Re: The Last Jedi

Postby Sneelock » 20 Dec 2017, 17:19

Harlan Ellison called "Star Wars" fans idiots when it was new because of the explosions in space.
I suppose we are seeing the Force doing things we haven't seen it do before and I guess that really bothers some people.
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Re: The Last Jedi

Postby Copehead » 21 Dec 2017, 08:21

Sneelock wrote:I think the director is handling the online backlash pretty well.
http://www.businessinsider.com/star-war ... sh-2017-12


Millions of casual fans will be happy with 2.5 hours of entertainment.

No nerd fan is going to ever be happy with anything other than a Star Wars film built to his own specifications.

The film has good critical reviews because most critics will be fans of film not Star wars.

The Star Wars fan sub culture are pretty much guaranteed to hate anything produced by the franchise for ever because bitching about shit is so much more fun than saying you enjoyed and if you can show how deep into the minutiae of the Star Wars universe you are to fellow nerds so much the better.

If you can say you hate it because Princess Leia's Rebel regalia is slightly the wrong shade of puce compared to that in Episode 4 you probably win the internet

That is the nature of this extreme fandom we have for entertainment ephemera these days
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Re: The Last Jedi

Postby Jeemo » 21 Dec 2017, 08:55

i saw it last night. it ticked most of the boxes, too lomg though.
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Re: The Last Jedi

Postby Jeemo » 21 Dec 2017, 08:56

and the 12 year old loved it. job done.
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Re: The Last Jedi

Postby Goat Boy » 21 Dec 2017, 10:04

Sneelock wrote:Harlan Ellison called "Star Wars" fans idiots when it was new because of the explosions in space.
I suppose we are seeing the Force doing things we haven't seen it do before and I guess that really bothers some people.


It bothered me. Expanding force powers was always going to be one of the trickier moves any director was going to attempt but I don’t think they got it right here. I can just about buy Lukes Force hologram thaaang but Leia’s spacewalk? Really?

The only Force powers Leia has previously shown is some vague telekinetic connection to Luke and that’s it. Of course in the years after Return of the Jedi you could reasonably assume that Luke had taught her some things but this was a stretch too far. To me it resembled some superhero movie. I thought it was one of the Marvel *spits on floor* moments in this movie.

Lukes force hologram I can just about by into but then it’s not entirely consistent with the old movies. If Jedi can do this why didn’t Obi-Wan use it against Vadar?

And now force ghosts can interfere in the real world too. If that’s the case why didn’t Yoda help Luke against Vadar then? Or Obi-Wan? In an early version of Return of the Jedi this idea of force ghosts using their powers in the real world existed but it was jettisoned from later versions unsurprisingly. Why? Because it’s not a very good idea. You couldn’t have Luke against Vadar and the emporer with Obi-Wan and Yoda hanging around. It had to be just Luke.

Fans will tolerate plot holes and shit like that but when it comes to fundamental Star Wars shit like this it’s different of course. I liked the fact that the Jedi weren’t supermen back in the day. I think in this movie they have crossed over into something different and it’s not consistent with what has come before.
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Re: The Last Jedi

Postby Goat Boy » 21 Dec 2017, 11:08

Oh I've forgotten everything about the prequels!
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Re: The Last Jedi

Postby PENK » 21 Dec 2017, 11:13

Copehead wrote:
Sneelock wrote:I think the director is handling the online backlash pretty well.
http://www.businessinsider.com/star-war ... sh-2017-12


Millions of casual fans will be happy with 2.5 hours of entertainment.

No nerd fan is going to ever be happy with anything other than a Star Wars film built to his own specifications.

The film has good critical reviews because most critics will be fans of film not Star wars.

The Star Wars fan sub culture are pretty much guaranteed to hate anything produced by the franchise for ever because bitching about shit is so much more fun than saying you enjoyed and if you can show how deep into the minutiae of the Star Wars universe you are to fellow nerds so much the better.

If you can say you hate it because Princess Leia's Rebel regalia is slightly the wrong shade of puce compared to that in Episode 4 you probably win the internet

That is the nature of this extreme fandom we have for entertainment ephemera these days


I think it's wrong to assume that all the people who are not satisfied with the film are Star Wars nerds angry because they killed off Luke or the bad guy isn't totally evil. I think there are a lot of more casual fans/viewers like myself who take issues with massive plot holes like the big evil villain apparently being the most powerful Force user ever but having come from nowhere and getting killed in a way that even a child could have seen coming, or the stupid fucking c*s*n* bit which was a whole lot of wasted Young James Bond meets I don't know, Paw Patrol or something just to make a vague point about the machinery of war or Leia just fucking waking up in space and flying into the fucking spaceship. Seriously, Leia just fucking waking up in space and flying into the fucking spaceship. That was bloody stupid whichever angle you're coming at the film from!

Still, there were good parts. I liked the Rey-Ren who will go dark, who will beat their urges bit even though I thought that for more impact the roles should have been switched for the final film. The Poe mutiny subplot was a very clever bit of distraction despite leading to the stupid fucking c*s*n* bit. And most of the action scenes were good. The amazing Force powers of Luke etc were just, well, Force powers and they've always been, shall we say, "adaptable to the filmmaker's needs".

I enjoyed the film in parts but it was still a bit of a letdown. Not because of what they did with the Star Wars mythology, just because as a film there were parts that were clearly botched, misguided or plain rubbish.
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Re: The Last Jedi

Postby Toby » 21 Dec 2017, 11:20

I like the fact that Johnson has pretty much ended the last vestiges of the OT. We have a new story now.

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Re: The Last Jedi

Postby Goat Boy » 21 Dec 2017, 11:45

The only way they'll truly break away will be with the new trilogy.

I'm ok with that. For this trilogy it's about balancing the old with the new. The first movie didn't have enough of the latter. The new one has new stuff but not of all it works.
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