Twin Peaks season 3

..and why not?
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Goat Boy
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Re: Twin Peaks season 3

Postby Goat Boy » 06 Sep 2017, 11:54

The Modernist wrote:
Goat Boy wrote:G doesn't like Lynch when he does this sort of thing. He prefers more straight ahead linear narratives.


That's fair.
Funnily enough I liked episode 18 more than episode 17 (which whilst providing a more traditional climax and resolution, I just found a bit silly) in many ways. Although there were lots of things that were dramatically unsatisfying about it, I did feel it was itching towards something more profound and poignant and human. There was a sadness about seeing Coop with (not) Laura as they stood outside the house not knowing who they were or where they were.


Oh I thought it was all those things. What could be more human than Coops desire to bring back Laura and remove all that pain and suffering from the world? Cooper wants to right some terrible wrong and he will pursue this to the bitter end. We, the audience want this wrong to be righted too, on some level I think, which is why Cooper represents something greater here, he represents that irrational but entirely human desire to change this. He becomes the tragic hero, the one whose noble desire will eventually lead to his undoing. Remember when he’s in the sheriffs office and he says the “past dictates the future”? That’s Coop declaring he is going to attempt this. For Laura and for Twin Peaks, a place he came to love. That’s the decision he makes. The realisation at the end that he has failed – his reaction on the street, his confused face in the red room – is heartbreaking to me. Coop was the best of Us and if he couldn’t do it nobody could, which is the point. What year is this? It doesn’t matter really. This is every year.

The Modernist wrote:I'm not even sure how much final control Mark Frost had ultimately (although I hold him responsible, or to blame if you prefer, for the schlocky X-Files/sci-fi direction the show took).


Well season 2 had the schlocky X-Files stuff with Briggs and the UFOs. I think this was different because it wasn't a cheap trick. It was using a sci fi element (alternative timelines, dimensions, whatever) to say something more profound about the human condition, in particular the consequences of death ands the impact of Lauras tragedy on those around her

The Modernist wrote::lol:
So you have the age old conflict of good vs evil and it turns out all you need to defeat evil is someone with a superhuman punch. It really is like something a 13 year old would come up with. They should have just called up Mike Tyson back in the late eighties to do the job for them and save themselves the bother. :.
One of the (many) problems they had in this series was how to replace Bob and the very real visceral evil he represented in the original. For me they failed to devise a good solution for this. I did think The Woodsmen were creepy though and, if anything, were underused.


Er, Evil Coop?

The thing is, evil hasn’t been defeated. Bob was ultimately ‘replaced’ with something much more powerful and greater in the form of Judy, which is some kind of eternal evil. And yet there needs to be a victory of some kind – for the audience and for Coop - but there also needs to be a defeat and an understanding that there is no Great Victory here and that people like Coop are part of some eternal ying and yang between darkness and light. One of the strokes of genius of the original show was to create some kind of supernatural analogy for good and evil through the lodges. Season 3 expanded upon this and made it clear that there are supernatural forces fighting against each other and that these forces use Us for this purpose (the creation of Bob by Mother, the golden Laura orb).

The ending inevitably casts a shadow backwards over everything that came before. As horrible and visceral as Bob was the shadow of Judy and Coops failure creates something far grimmer than Bob, some kind of existential nightmare that we live in. Forever.



And G's reply which is a bit fucked up now because the man is a fucking ninny...


Expect I didn't get a lot of that from watching it. It seems to me that we are projecting an awful lot of meaning onto things that are pretty ill-defined. And because they are ill-defined I didn't get that emotional pull from it. TP3 generally is a classic case on how people can watch things on different levels. If you're prepared to invest a lot of time in understanding all the lodge lore then it can be fascinating exercise in puzzle solving.
But I guess I lose patience with that aspect, I prefer more visceral things..my loss probably.
As for Evil Coop, he was okay. I can enjoy watching Kyle Machlachan in anything (although I may make an exception for Showgirls :) , but I didn't find Evil Coop particularly 'evil'. He seemed more like a ruthless super-criminal that can be found in any number of crime narratives. Almost like a stock character.
I have enjoyed reading your insights Dougie, I must say and they've made me more sympathetic to what Lynch & Frost were trying to achieve. I may return to some of your other points.
Last edited by Goat Boy on 06 Sep 2017, 12:44, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Twin Peaks season 3

Postby Goat Boy » 06 Sep 2017, 12:09

neville harp wrote:I've only watched half of the first episode (of series 3). I was mesmerised but is it worth ploughing through the rest?


If you like what Lynch did from Lost Highway on then yes.

And if you have seen the original show AND FWWM
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Re: Twin Peaks season 3

Postby The Great Defector » 06 Sep 2017, 12:21

Turns out the dude running down the stairs after coop and mike went up was the jumping man from FWWM. Also, I didn't know or remember the film as much as I thought. I read through the plot again at the final scene is

As Laura's body is found by the Sheriff's department, Agent Cooper comforts her spirit in the Lodge and she sees an angel which had previously disappeared from her bedroom painting.

If that's a prequel, then does that mean coop was bad coop all a long? or did he escape, have his memory wiped and treated it as a new case in season one?


I need to watch that film again.
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Re: Twin Peaks season 3

Postby The Modernist » 06 Sep 2017, 12:25

Oh man.
A big apology.
In trying to reply to Dougie's epic post, I accidentally edited it when I thought I was quoting it. That means half of your post has been lost and you put so much work into it.
I'm really sorry man. :(

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Re: Twin Peaks season 3

Postby The Modernist » 06 Sep 2017, 12:28

The Great Defector wrote:Turns out the dude running down the stairs after coop and mike went up was the jumping man from FWWM. Also, I didn't know or remember the film as much as I thought. I read through the plot again at the final scene is

As Laura's body is found by the Sheriff's department, Agent Cooper comforts her spirit in the Lodge and she sees an angel which had previously disappeared from her bedroom painting.

If that's a prequel, then does that mean coop was bad coop all a long? or did he escape, have his memory wiped and treated it as a new case in season one?


I need to watch that film again.


No Why would it mean he was bad Coop all along? :?

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Re: Twin Peaks season 3

Postby kewl klive » 06 Sep 2017, 12:28

Censorship by a former admin! BAN HIM!
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Re: Twin Peaks season 3

Postby Belle Lettre » 06 Sep 2017, 12:30

You haven't replied to mine either G!
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Re: Twin Peaks season 3

Postby Belle Lettre » 06 Sep 2017, 12:31

Goat Boy wrote:
neville harp wrote:I've only watched half of the first episode (of series 3). I was mesmerised but is it worth ploughing through the rest?


If you like what Lynch did from Lost Highway on then yes.

And if you have seen the original show AND FWWM

And if you accept you can never go back
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Re: Twin Peaks season 3

Postby The Modernist » 06 Sep 2017, 12:32

neville harp wrote:Censorship by a former admin! BAN HIM!


The edit and quote buttons are very close to each other and so it's sometimes easy to mix them up. Well it is if you're a ninkinpoop like me!

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Re: Twin Peaks season 3

Postby The Modernist » 06 Sep 2017, 12:33

Belle Lettre wrote:You haven't replied to mine either G!


No I know. I'll reply tonight, but it's unlikely I'll be going.

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Re: Twin Peaks season 3

Postby The Great Defector » 06 Sep 2017, 12:33

The Modernist wrote:
The Great Defector wrote:Turns out the dude running down the stairs after coop and mike went up was the jumping man from FWWM. Also, I didn't know or remember the film as much as I thought. I read through the plot again at the final scene is

As Laura's body is found by the Sheriff's department, Agent Cooper comforts her spirit in the Lodge and she sees an angel which had previously disappeared from her bedroom painting.

If that's a prequel, then does that mean coop was bad coop all a long? or did he escape, have his memory wiped and treated it as a new case in season one?


I need to watch that film again.


No Why would it mean he was bad Coop all along? :?



Only one can stay and one can leave. If that wasn't the case, then how did coop get out and why did he go through the motions of investigating Laura's murder, when he could have simply just went and lifted Leland/bob?

The only thing I can think of its just a flash forward to the end of season two were the two are trapped.

The other thing is when Laura died, and there's no evidence that there was ever a doppelganger, how did she end up in the lodge and not just, well, die and go to heaven or somewhere.
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Re: Twin Peaks season 3

Postby Goat Boy » 06 Sep 2017, 12:45

The Modernist wrote:Oh man.
A big apology.
In trying to reply to Dougie's epic post, I accidentally edited it when I thought I was quoting it. That means half of your post has been lost and you put so much work into it.
I'm really sorry man. :(



I don't write long posts on here - I use my work Outlook so I only lost a bit.

I've added your reply at the end.


TWAT
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Re: Twin Peaks season 3

Postby Goat Boy » 06 Sep 2017, 13:04

The Modernist wrote:Expect I didn't get a lot of that from watching it. It seems to me that we are projecting an awful lot of meaning onto things that are pretty ill-defined. And because they are ill-defined I didn't get that emotional pull from it. TP3 generally is a classic case on how people can watch things on different levels. If you're prepared to invest a lot of time in understanding all the lodge lore then it can be fascinating exercise in puzzle solving.
But I guess I lose patience with that aspect, I prefer more visceral things..my loss probably.
As for Evil Coop, he was okay. I can enjoy watching Kyle Machlachan in anything (although I may make an exception for Showgirls :) , but I didn't find Evil Coop particularly 'evil'. He seemed more like a ruthless super-criminal that can be found in any number of crime narratives. Almost like a stock character.
I have enjoyed reading your insights Dougie, I must say and they've made me more sympathetic to what Lynch & Frost were trying to achieve. I may return to some of your other points.



I think Lynch gives you enough to get meaning and emotion from it. It is a fine line though and dependent on a number of things. I think he pulled off a similar high wire act with Mulholland Drive too.

I was disappointed at first by him stripping it back to just Cooper and Laura for the final episode because I wanted to see Audrey etc but he brought it back down to the shows essence: Cooper and Laura. I think the fact that Cooper tries to save Laura by stopping her death is clear (all these scenes from the pilot where lauras body vanishes etc). I think it's also clear that when attempting this something goes wrong (in fact it's not Cooper who fails here, it's that Mother intervenes) and that some kind of alternative Twin Peaks is created (the Truth here doesn't concern me that much, it's just Alternative). Laura then vanishes. Cooper, intent on completing his mission goes off in search of Laura and then tries to bring her back Home. Then he realises something is very awry, presumably because of Mothers intervention. The End.

I think if you have an emotional connection to these two characters, and I very much do, then the emotional punch here is something quite visceral and desperately sad regardless of whether this is another dimension or just a different timeline or whatever. That's the details and they don't concern me that much. It could even be some kind of Netherworld that Cooper ventures into. A place where Laura, wrenched from the REAL WORLD, 'exists' in some kind of purgatory, which might explain Coopers different behaviour. In fact, I quite like that idea. In fact, maybe the
black fire that Hawk talked about is this place. I dunno.

The ending has haunted me.
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Re: Twin Peaks season 3

Postby Belle Lettre » 06 Sep 2017, 13:11

Fantastic writing, Dougie.
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Re: Twin Peaks season 3

Postby The Modernist » 06 Sep 2017, 13:12

The Great Defector wrote:
Only one can stay and one can leave. If that wasn't the case, then how did coop get out and why did he go through the motions of investigating Laura's murder, when he could have simply just went and lifted Leland/bob?
.


He goes into the lodge in the last episode of season two, so well after the murder. Laura does meet him in the lodge in FWWM, but that's a dream.
I think. :lol:

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Re: Twin Peaks season 3

Postby Goat Boy » 06 Sep 2017, 13:15

Belle Lettre wrote:Fantastic writing, Dougie.


Let's hope G doesn't delete it
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Re: Twin Peaks season 3

Postby Goat Boy » 06 Sep 2017, 13:19

Image

From Orpheus.
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Re: Twin Peaks season 3

Postby Goat Boy » 06 Sep 2017, 13:20

Image
Lord Rother wrote:Missing the sublime sense of melody which David Longdon brought to the group but nonetheless a damn fine album.

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Re: Twin Peaks season 3

Postby Goat Boy » 06 Sep 2017, 13:23

Remember the Tree shouting at Coop, "non-existence! Non-existence!"? Maybe that's what happened to Laura.
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Re: Twin Peaks season 3

Postby The Great Defector » 06 Sep 2017, 13:27

The Modernist wrote:
The Great Defector wrote:
Only one can stay and one can leave. If that wasn't the case, then how did coop get out and why did he go through the motions of investigating Laura's murder, when he could have simply just went and lifted Leland/bob?
.


He goes into the lodge in the last episode of season two, so well after the murder. Laura does meet him in the lodge in FWWM, but that's a dream.
I think. :lol:


I don't think it's a dream, though when he meets her to save her in the return, she says that she saw him in a dream.


DAMN YOU LYNCH AND FROST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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