BCB 100 - Yes

Do we know what we like? We even talk about it!
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Postby frimleygreener » 23 Jul 2006, 20:15

i liked the first album that was entitled "yes".but this is not,seemingly,the "yes" album.from the debut album called "yes",i like "survival" and "harold land".i saw them preview these tracks at parliament hill fields prior to the albums release,and they made a good fist of it.

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Postby Pat O'Banton » 23 Jul 2006, 20:18

frimleygreener wrote:i liked the first album that was entitled "yes".but this is not,seemingly,the "yes" album.from the debut album called "yes",i like "survival" and "harold land".i saw them preview these tracks at parliament hill fields prior to the albums release,and they made a good fist of it.


did you not follow them much after that?

(by the way, you're showing your age there. when was that? 1969?)
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Postby frimleygreener » 23 Jul 2006, 20:19

The Giraffe wrote:
frimleygreener wrote:i liked the first album that was entitled "yes".but this is not,seemingly,the "yes" album.from the debut album called "yes",i like "survival" and "harold land".i saw them preview these tracks at parliament hill fields prior to the albums release,and they made a good fist of it.


did you not follow them much after that?

(by the way, you're showing your age there. when was that? 1969?)


it was way back..way back....yes,that sounds about right..i am a fifty four year old codger,(no syrup,own teeth,gsoh)....

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Postby Snowdog » 23 Jul 2006, 20:24

frimleygreener wrote:
The Giraffe wrote:
frimleygreener wrote:i liked the first album that was entitled "yes".but this is not,seemingly,the "yes" album.from the debut album called "yes",i like "survival" and "harold land".i saw them preview these tracks at parliament hill fields prior to the albums release,and they made a good fist of it.


did you not follow them much after that?

(by the way, you're showing your age there. when was that? 1969?)


it was way back..way back....yes,that sounds about right..i am a fifty four year old codger,(no syrup,own teeth,gsoh)....


So, own teeth, own hair. Who's is the sense of humour? :lol:
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Postby Prograstinator » 23 Jul 2006, 20:25

The Giraffe wrote:
Tangent wrote:*Ahem*

Quite a lot of Yes fans on the board.. but who has Yes tattoo'd on their body?


is it davey? :?


Nope, own up, you know who you are!
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Postby PENK » 23 Jul 2006, 20:26

Tangent wrote:you know who you are!


Thank God, I was worried it might be me for a minute there.
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Postby frimleygreener » 23 Jul 2006, 20:28

Snowdog 2006 wrote:
frimleygreener wrote:
The Giraffe wrote:
frimleygreener wrote:i liked the first album that was entitled "yes".but this is not,seemingly,the "yes" album.from the debut album called "yes",i like "survival" and "harold land".i saw them preview these tracks at parliament hill fields prior to the albums release,and they made a good fist of it.


did you not follow them much after that?

(by the way, you're showing your age there. when was that? 1969?)


it was way back..way back....yes,that sounds about right..i am a fifty four year old codger,(no syrup,own teeth,gsoh)....


So, own teeth, own hair. Who's is the sense of humour? :lol:


it has no ownership,'tis but culled from life's rich pageant..and i hope to god young lady(i remember them) that your location has no relevance to my status:)

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Postby The Slider » 23 Jul 2006, 20:33

Davey The Fat Boy wrote:
The Slider wrote:
Davey The Fat Boy wrote: there is almost no subtlety in this music.


This is, I think, one of the strangest comments I have ever heard passed on Yes. Subtlety is one of their main strengths.


I don't think e are talking about the same thing.


Oh, sorry. I thought you were talking about subtlety.

Davey The Fat Boy wrote: My guess is you are talking about musical complexity.


Sorry, no. I was talking about subtlety.
My mistake.
i thought when you said there was almost no subtlety in their music that you were talking about the lack of subtlety in their music.

Davey The Fat Boy wrote: But there was literally nothing subtle about them. Their songs were generally long and meandering,


ah - so subtlety is depends upon brevity....
I bet Wagner feels a fool.

Davey The Fat Boy wrote:
and often the arrangements seemed to be geared towards showcasing their musicianship, rather than bothering to be evocative in any meaningful way.


Sometimes that is the case. It is part and parcel of prog rock.
But you are painting them with the same one-dimnsional brush as a Motorhead here.
I am quite astonished that someone who is as familar with their ouvre as you claim to be would even remotely think that way. Especially as it is someone who has proven themself to be pretty musically perceptive.

Davey The Fat Boy wrote:
Lyrically they were equally obscure and grandiose.

While I would not disagree with you, it doesn't have anything to do with the subtlety of their music.
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Postby ComradeGummidge » 23 Jul 2006, 20:43

Tangent wrote:
The Giraffe wrote:
Tangent wrote:*Ahem*

Quite a lot of Yes fans on the board.. but who has Yes tattoo'd on their body?


is it davey? :?


Nope, own up, you know who you are!


Fucking right it's me, okay don't believe in tattoos now as they're too permanentand I did get it when I was 17 but did you honestly believe I would hide in the shadows with this one??? Wrong yet again my friend.

But then Roger Dean is an excellent artist as well.

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Postby Prograstinator » 23 Jul 2006, 21:01

Hollywood wrote:Tsk tsk my friend, you'll just HAVE to accept they're not as unpopular as you believed them to be. Tough luck.


Andy, apologies are in order, I never said they were unpopular, I said they sucked ass. I expect a few BCBers to be Yes fans, it goes with the territory.

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Postby ComradeGummidge » 23 Jul 2006, 22:13

Tangent wrote:
Hollywood wrote:Tsk tsk my friend, you'll just HAVE to accept they're not as unpopular as you believed them to be. Tough luck.


Andy, apologies are in order, I never said they were unpopular, I said they sucked ass. I expect a few BCBers to be Yes fans, it goes with the territory.

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True YOU said they sucked ass but that doesn't actually mean they DO suck as. You're just opinionated, something we've learned to somehow accept. So no, you're not getting an apology out of me.

But that's a cool tattoo :lol:

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Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 24 Jul 2006, 13:56

The Slider wrote:
Davey The Fat Boy wrote:
The Slider wrote:
Davey The Fat Boy wrote: there is almost no subtlety in this music.


This is, I think, one of the strangest comments I have ever heard passed on Yes. Subtlety is one of their main strengths.


I don't think e are talking about the same thing.


Oh, sorry. I thought you were talking about subtlety.

Davey The Fat Boy wrote: My guess is you are talking about musical complexity.


Sorry, no. I was talking about subtlety.
My mistake.
i thought when you said there was almost no subtlety in their music that you were talking about the lack of subtlety in their music.

Davey The Fat Boy wrote: But there was literally nothing subtle about them. Their songs were generally long and meandering,


ah - so subtlety is depends upon brevity....
I bet Wagner feels a fool.

Davey The Fat Boy wrote:
and often the arrangements seemed to be geared towards showcasing their musicianship, rather than bothering to be evocative in any meaningful way.


Sometimes that is the case. It is part and parcel of prog rock.
But you are painting them with the same one-dimnsional brush as a Motorhead here.
I am quite astonished that someone who is as familar with their ouvre as you claim to be would even remotely think that way. Especially as it is someone who has proven themself to be pretty musically perceptive.

Davey The Fat Boy wrote:
Lyrically they were equally obscure and grandiose.

While I would not disagree with you, it doesn't have anything to do with the subtlety of their music.


Okay - let's just recap the parts that we've agreed on:

We've agreed that their songs can be looooong. You brought up Wagner as a defense, but surely you must know that Wagner is practically the poster boy for lack of subtlety to fans of classical music. While it is possible to be subtle without being brief, it is very unlikely. By nature subtlety generally brings with it an implication of doing things sparingly.

We've also agreed that they sometimes put an emphasis on showcasing their virtuosity over being evocative. Your defense is that this approach is part and parcel of being a prog rock band. Fair enough - but is there anything less subtle than a musician showing off their chops?

Lastly we've agreed that their lyrics are often obscure and grandiose. You try to sweep this away by stating "it doesn't have anything to do with the subtlety of their music." But of course it does. When a person tells Bob Dylan "I love your music," they are likely not just talking about chord changes, melodies, and harmonica riffs. They are talking about his songs. The totality of his music - including lyrics.

So the picture that' emerged here is of a band that:

- lacks brevity
- is known to present vituosity for its own sake
- writes grandiose lyrics
- has a keyboard player who wears a cape (see evidence below)
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To me that's a pretty good case for calling them unsubtle right there. Especially the cape. On the other side of the debate you've offered no evidence that would establish their subtlety. So...until you do the criticism stands.

Anyhow - not trying to piss in anyone's Cheerios here. Music is always a matter of opinion. I always think it is better to try and like music than to argue against it. But in the case of Yes, I've had more than enough exposure to know that I don't enjoy them. Further - my brother pushed them down my throat for more than a decade, so I can hardly be begrudged for a little message board vendetta. But I respect your opinions, your knowledge and love of music, and most importantly - your right to like Yes or any other band you respond to. You didn't live with my brother after all. :) But smart people can disagree - and on this is apparently where you and I do exactly that.
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Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 24 Jul 2006, 14:01

Snowdog 2006 wrote:
Davey The Fat Boy wrote:
Snowdog 2006 wrote:
Davey The Fat Boy wrote:
Snowdog 2006 wrote: What's the point of saying 'a cape' as if there's something intrinsically bad about it?


Capes are intrinsically unsubtle. I am drawing a line in the sand here. You cannot wear a cape and be considered subtle. The possibility officially goes away the minute you tie the little strap thingy's around your neck.

It makes about as much sense as me saying The Clash were shit because they didn't wear capes.

No. The Clash were great because they didn't wear capes. What part of this is confusing you?

Is there a particular style of cape that's okay?

No. All capes are unsubtle. I am prepared to back this statement up with charts and graphs.

Was it okay when Elvis wore one?

No it wasn't. It eventually killed him. Liberace too.

Discussion over.

That's fine. I am perfectly willing to monologue if need be. :D


All I'm saying is that stating opinion as fact (which is basically what you're doing) creates a conversational dead end so there's not much point in continuing the discussion.

I will say that what I meant about The Clash (or any other artist come to think of it) is that I could just as easily state anything as a personal preference & it would still be, quite simply, meaningless.


Oh c'mon now. Just look at it. How can you defend it?
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I think it looks fantastic.

Which is as valid as you saying the opposite.

Your turn. :D


I am saying it lacks subtlety. Do you generally find gold sequins to be subtle?
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Postby Snowdog » 24 Jul 2006, 14:24

I think you have a weird idea of what "subtle" is.

I also think you have a weird way of assessing how something must be.

You're arguments seem to be largely based on pre-conceptions or personal opinions that don't necessarily lead to the conclusion you're suggesting.

Let's have a look at some specifics:

"While it is possible to be subtle without being brief, it is very unlikely." Er... No, I'm sorry, you've lost me there. For a minute it was English then suddenly? Fluent 'arse'.

"is there anything less subtle than a musician showing off their chops?" Why is this unsubtle by default?

The combined intricacies that make up the bulk of Yes's music weave, for me at least, a complex & genuinely subtle, well let's say tapestry as it evokes the right image. Not unsubtle, not bombastic. Even something like Roundabout (since it's playing as I type this) whilst being full on, still strikes me as subtle, complex & intricate. Never bludgeoning or stodgy, despite everything that's going on.

"[grandiose lyrics don't] have anything to do with the subtlety of their music." But of course it does." No. No, really, it doesn't.

Your argument seems to run thus:

It has 4 legs.

It has a tail.

It has short fur.

It has 2 ears.

It is a horse.

Yes music is absolutely stacked full of music of the greatest subtlety, despite all the things you claim. As is Wagner I might add.

And let's not even go there with your ridiculous generalisations about capes. :roll:
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Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 24 Jul 2006, 16:48

I think you have a weird idea of what "subtle" is.


Likewise, I'm sure.

I also think you have a weird way of assessing how something must be.


I don't think we've discussed how something "must be." I've simply given my opinion on a progressive rock band. Apparently doing so on a message board dedicated to opinions about music is problematic for you. Why so?

You're arguments seem to be largely based on pre-conceptions or personal opinions that don't necessarily lead to the conclusion you're suggesting.


No. My arguments are based on pre-conceptions or personal opinions that don't necessarily lead YOU to the conclusion I'm suggesting. They get me there just fine. And thus far your responses are based on pre-conceptions or personal opinions that are meaningless to me. Imagine that happening when discussing art...

Let's have a look at some specifics:

"While it is possible to be subtle without being brief, it is very unlikely." Er... No, I'm sorry, you've lost me there. For a minute it was English then suddenly? Fluent 'arse'.

I'm sorry - did you bother to make a point here? Did I miss it?

"is there anything less subtle than a musician showing off their chops?" Why is this unsubtle by default?

I suppose exceptions exist. But for the most part a musician whose bottom line musical statement is essentially, "look how good I am at playing this guitar" is not being anything that I'd call subtle. If you feel otherwise I've got some Yngwie Malmsteen you might find to be very delicate and nuanced.

The combined intricacies that make up the bulk of Yes's music weave, for me at least, a complex & genuinely subtle, well let's say tapestry as it evokes the right image. Not unsubtle, not bombastic. Even something like Roundabout (since it's playing as I type this) whilst being full on, still strikes me as subtle, complex & intricate. Never bludgeoning or stodgy, despite everything that's going on.


The key words in that paragrph being "for me." Personally I don't understand all the going's on about "mountains coming coming out of the sky" and "stand(ing) there."

"[grandiose lyrics don't] have anything to do with the subtlety of their music." But of course it does." No. No, really, it doesn't.

Yes. Yes, really, it does. First off - when I originally called Yes unsubtle, I never isolated out their lyrics. Yes is the sum total of their entire artistic statement - and that includes lyrics.

Your argument seems to run thus:

It has 4 legs.

It has a tail.

It has short fur.

It has 2 ears.

It is a horse.


My argument is that Yes has several different elements that I find unsubtle - therefore I do not find them subtle. Your argument consists of, "Yes is very subtle if you disregard all of the times that they are not."

Yes music is absolutely stacked full of music of the greatest subtlety, despite all the things you claim.

Well since you typed it, it must be true.

As is Wagner I might add.

Sure. You don't get to be considered a master of classical music without being capable of subtlety. However...relative to other classical masters Wagner is considered among the most bombastic. The term Wagnerian is used often to describe art that lacks subtlety. I just found it to be a funny defense given that.

And let's not even go there with your ridiculous generalisations about capes. :roll:


Okay - but how do you feel about pointy hats?
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Postby Clippernolan » 24 Jul 2006, 17:23

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Postby The Slider » 24 Jul 2006, 18:10

Davey The Fat Boy wrote:
Okay - let's just recap the parts that we've agreed on:

We've agreed that their songs can be looooong. You brought up Wagner as a defense, but surely you must know that Wagner is practically the poster boy for lack of subtlety to fans of classical music.


I don't believe that anyone who knows anything beyond The Ride of the Valkyries would ever say anything so completely and utterly wrong.

Davey The Fat Boy wrote:
While it is possible to be subtle without being brief, it is very unlikely. By nature subtlety generally brings with it an implication of doing things sparingly.


Explain Eno to me then - just for starters.
The length of a composition has no bearing whatsoever on the nature of its content.

Davey The Fat Boy wrote:We've also agreed that they sometimes put an emphasis on showcasing their virtuosity over being evocative. Your defense is that this approach is part and parcel of being a prog rock band. Fair enough - but is there anything less subtle than a musician showing off their chops?


I think you are confusing Yes with Emerson, Lake and Palmer. :lol:
Yes are/were a multi-dimensional act. Often (usually, in fact) within the confines (seems like the wrong word in this context) of a single song.
Go listen to Heart Of The Sunrise for a very basic example - it starts off with a complex band instrumental all a crash-and-a-bang, puases for a lovely, lilting, subtle vocal piece - with just a simple guitar accompaniment - before headng off into the realms of prog-excess soloing.

Davey The Fat Boy wrote:Lastly we've agreed that their lyrics are often obscure and grandiose. You try to sweep this away by stating "it doesn't have anything to do with the subtlety of their music." But of course it does. When a person tells Bob Dylan "I love your music," they are likely not just talking about chord changes, melodies, and harmonica riffs. They are talking about his songs. The totality of his music - including lyrics.


What are you talking about here?
How on earth can you use Dylan as a comparison point to Yes on any level whatsoever?
You said that Yes were devoid of subtlety I assumed you were talking musically, as to discuss whether there is or isn't any subtlety involved in what is, to all intents and purposes, gobbledegook is a pointless task.
People take Yes' lyrics about a seriously as they do Dylan's music.

Davey The Fat Boy wrote:So the picture that' emerged here is of a band that:

- lacks brevity

They don't lack it at all - they sometimes shun it in order to explore their musical themes more fully. And besides which, as i have pointed out, the length of a composition has no bearing whatsoever on how obvious or subtle it may be.

Davey The Fat Boy wrote:- is known to present vituosity for its own sake
- writes grandiose lyrics

Presenting virtuosity for its own sake is unlikely to ever produce results that could ever be described as 'subtle'
It is therefore a good job that they are also known to do the complete opposite too. It is called having more than one string to one's bow.
Davey The Fat Boy wrote:- has a keyboard player who wears a cape (see evidence below)
Image

To me that's a pretty good case for calling them unsubtle right there.
Especially the cape.


It is a very subtle cape.

Davey The Fat Boy wrote: On the other side of the debate you've offered no evidence that would establish their subtlety. So...until you do the criticism stands.


Ok let's leave aside the first two albums and concentrate on the fully fledged Yes.
The melodic lilts to songs like All Good People, And You And I, Heart of the Sunrise (all of which are simple voice/guitar tunes with an artless uncomplicated structure) South Side of the Sky, the middle sections of Close to the Edge and Roundabout are all (amongst many others) subtly written and performed.
There are subtle and clever little interweavings of tunes right through their works. Two that spring to mind are the way-down-low-in-the-mix interpolation of Give Peace a Chance in All Good People and the way that the two themes (in different meters and time signatures) merge at the end of the instrumental section of Perpetual Change.
There are countless instances right though Yes' ouvre and we could sit down with each album in turn and I could point them out to you with a chalkboard and a stick if we were not seperated by that pesky Atlantic Ocean.

Davey The Fat Boy wrote:Anyhow - not trying to piss in anyone's Cheerios here. Music is always a matter of opinion. I always think it is better to try and like music than to argue against it. But in the case of Yes, I've had more than enough exposure to know that I don't enjoy them.


That doesn't mean that they are incapable of subtletly

Davey The Fat Boy wrote: Further - my brother pushed them down my throat for more than a decade, so I can hardly be begrudged for a little message board vendetta.

Asolutely not.
Tell me you hate the fuckers and that their music makes you shit.
I will laugh like a drain along with you.

Davey The Fat Boy wrote:But I respect your opinions, your knowledge and love of music, and most importantly - your right to like Yes or any other band you respond to.

See, I knew you were smarter than you were pretending to be on this thread. :lol:
Davey The Fat Boy wrote:You didn't live with my brother after all. :) But smart people can disagree - and on this is apparently where you and I do exactly that.

Of course - but only because on this particular matter you are mistaken.
There is shedloads of subtlety in Yes' music. :lol:
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Postby Matt Wilson » 24 Jul 2006, 18:14

When John gives you his multi-quote rebuttal that means you've truly arrived, Davey.

You can finally consider yourself a real BCBer.
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Postby Snowdog » 24 Jul 2006, 18:18

Oh, bollocks to it, it's too hot!

I started to go through your reply & answer point by point but I can't be fucking arsed. We obviously disagree so fundamentally on what we consider to constitute subtlety that we'll be carrying on like this for weeks.

Let me just say this: I don't have a problem at all with you posting your opinion of a prog band on a music message board.

I understood you to be stating opinion as fact ("it's not possible to wear a cape & be subtle") & took issue with that but it seems to be what we do here so go for it.

I felt that your arguments were based on fixed, closed preconceptions ("this is how it is") & I was attempting to be open ("not necessarily") but I guess I didn't come across like that.

My "fluent 'arse'" jibe, was an attempt to suggest, in a humourous way, that your statement (more or less that longer music is, by definition, less subtle) was a load of tosh & an unsupportable conclusion based on no facts.

We'll never get past the fact that what you hear as five blokes showing off all at once, I hear as a delicate tapestry of interwoven ideas & textures.

I'm going home.





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Postby Matt Wilson » 24 Jul 2006, 18:20

Snowdog 2006 wrote:Has anyone seen my hat? It's the pointy one.


It's right next to your cape.
Sneelock wrote:Bang your head on the floor. It''s about as productive as arguing with Davey but at least you have something to show for it.